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Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whitten's warped sense of fun
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2010, 04:25:55 PM »
Garland,

I've played a bunch of those holes and they are fun. Perhaps I need to play them again left handed to see what you see so warped about it.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whitten's warped sense of fun
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2010, 04:48:18 PM »
Other than the floating green par-3 I don't see any holes on there that obviously don't belong.

Can you come up with a better list of 18 holes of "fun?"
H.P.S.

Jim Colton

Re: Whitten's warped sense of fun
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2010, 04:53:16 PM »
The last time I played Blackwolf Run River was probably 4-5 years ago, and even then the trees in the middle of the 9th fairway had grown in so much that I think it sapped the fun out of the hole.  Going through the trees and the direct line along the river used to be viable options.  Now not so much.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whitten's warped sense of fun
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2010, 05:02:43 PM »
Can you come up with a better list of 18 holes of "fun?"

Too easy:

Pac Dunes 1-18
OM 1-18
NGLA 1-18
Wild Horse 1-18
SH (either one) 1-18
and of course
Oakmont 1-18

I can do this for a long time... :)

In all seriousness, I was surprised by the inclusion of the only hole on the list I've played, TR #15, easily one of my less favorite holes on the course. To each his own, I guess.

Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whitten's warped sense of fun
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2010, 05:15:48 PM »
Can you come up with a better list of 18 holes of "fun?"

Too easy:

Pac Dunes 1-18
OM 1-18
NGLA 1-18
Wild Horse 1-18
SH (either one) 1-18
and of course
Oakmont 1-18

I can do this for a long time... :)

Oakmont on a “Fun” list??  And Whitten is the warped one?

I can think of many outstanding adjectives for Oakmont, but “Fun” is the last thing I’m thinking when I’m on #8 tee or anywhere on #15.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whitten's warped sense of fun
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2010, 05:25:55 PM »
Wow, Kev, I feel sorry for you. :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whitten's warped sense of fun
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2010, 05:40:24 PM »
I can send golf balls into areas where I can't find or retrieve them for free. I don't have to pay a green fee to get the opportunity to do so.

Perhaps Whitten's golf talents are a bit better than the average golfer. Therefore, I suggest he has a warped sense of fun compared to what the average golfer would find fun.

I think GD should replace Ron with George who can better speak to what the average golf would appreciate.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whitten's warped sense of fun
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2010, 05:46:11 PM »
I can send golf balls into areas where I can't find or retrieve them for free. I don't have to pay a green fee to get the opportunity to do so.

Perhaps Whitten's golf talents are a bit better than the average golfer. Therefore, I suggest he has a warped sense of fun compared to what the average golfer would find fun.

I think GD should replace Ron with George who can better speak to what the average golf would appreciate.


No one pays to read about average golfers.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whitten's warped sense of fun
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2010, 05:50:03 PM »
I think Whitten should play LuLu, Forsgate or St. George's for fun .
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whitten's warped sense of fun
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2010, 05:50:20 PM »
Wow, Kev, I feel sorry for you. :)

Don't get me wrong, George.  I love Oakmont, but it wouldn't call it 18 holes of fun.  Getting around my first time in only 35 putts was one of the most satisfying achievements, but not necessarily based on pure fun.  The most fun I have at Oakmont is knowing I won't be digging into my bag all day to replace wet or lost golf balls!

Of course, I'm sure this is all a semantic exercise depending what "version" of fun you're looking for.

I have fun going on huge waterslides & rollercoasters (version1), but I also have fun solving Kakuro/Sudoku puzzles (version 2), so I clearly have no idea what I'm saying on this thread.   ;D

Greg Chambers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whitten's warped sense of fun
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2010, 05:59:53 PM »
I wasn't having much fun on hole 12 of Fossil Trace when I hit a perfect second shot down the middle and had to pitch out from behind one of those stupid sandstone outcroppings.  One of the worst holes I've ever played.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2010, 06:29:44 PM by Greg Chambers »
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whitten's warped sense of fun
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2010, 06:09:58 PM »
I would definitely include at least 1 hole from Ballyneal, Frairs #10 and Kingsbarns #6 on my list, but I haven't seen most of his. I also would have included more Mike Stranz.

If I did a full 18, it would be dominated with short 3's, short 4's, and insane forced carries!

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whitten's warped sense of fun
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2010, 06:17:11 PM »
Other than the floating green par-3 I don't see any holes on there that obviously don't belong.

Can you come up with a better list of 18 holes of "fun?"

The Floating green is fun for Joe Q public, maybe one of the top ones on this list. That is why people play there.

Arguably more fun than 17 at Sawgrass because it is easier....

Andy Troeger

Re: Whitten's warped sense of fun
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2010, 08:40:38 PM »
Garland,
Ron admits to being a pretty average golfer himself--he's not a single-digit handicap. I think most of the holes he points out would be pretty popular with the masses. Were all of the holes from public courses? It seemed like at least most were on first glance--that eliminates a lot of the possibilities.

I respect George's opinions and try to understand his rationale (perhaps more because its often different from my own), but I'm not sure he would my first choice as a voice of the masses! I wouldn't my first choice either, for what that's worth. I think Ron probably has a better handle on that than many are willing to admit.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whitten's warped sense of fun
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2010, 09:01:25 PM »
George really needs to cavortate before he postulates. The guy admits he hasn't played but one of the holes mentioned. Get out and do some heavy lifting partner.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whitten's warped sense of fun
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2010, 09:17:43 PM »
Can a golf hole be "fun" if you've only played it one time?  Can a golf hole be fun, independent of your score on it?  I've never played Oakmont, yet can vouch for Kevin's respect for the course.  I imagine that a person's definition of fun depends on the tilt of his life's axis.  Fun for some is a goofball, new-age hole like Fossil Trace, while another one finds fun in a Raynor or a Flynn or a Travis.

I've yet to play a course that didn't have a "fun" hole on it.  Unlike some on this thread, a fun hole for me can be of any distance.  It usually involves heaving, rolling land; some element of uncertainty/blindness; the ability to fashion a bounding, ground ball around a hazard; a monumental, hold-your-breath carry or a massive, undulating green.

As a mid-low handicap (not scratch, but not a seven), Ballyhack was unbelievable fun for me...I loved the rugged features of the course, yet didn't like the short par four 6th...not the one time I played it.  Had I played it over and over, I would have figured that cape hole out and probably come to hit a reckless driver and sent caution to the wind.  The 9th at Kinloch, same architect and completely different feel, could also be a fun hole, once I figured out how to play it (and developed enough confidence in my fairway metal to get the ball over the hazard on the second shot.)  Huge green that I 3-whacked for bogey, crazy yet fun.

and those are two of many...
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Anthony Gray

Re: Whitten's warped sense of fun
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2010, 10:11:16 PM »


  Cruden Bay


Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whitten's warped sense of fun
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2010, 10:44:55 PM »
Odd that all of Whitten's choices come from modern courses.

This is a fun one built long ago:





Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whitten's warped sense of fun
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2010, 05:49:08 AM »
One of the holes is from the Quarry at Giants Ridge designed by our own Jeff Brauer. I haven't played it, but I toured the course, and the 13 th looked like fun to me.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whitten's warped sense of fun
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2010, 11:33:08 AM »
For example, he chose 15 at Bully Pulpit. I stood on the tee and saw I couldn't go left, right, or short. So I guessed and took extra club, and went long. I guessed correctly. There was grassed area behind the green where my ball finished. Had I mishit and fallen short, a very common experience, I probably would have been alright with extra club. Fortunately, for once I didn't misdirect my shot.

If he wanted to choose a hole from his buddies course at Bully Pulpit, he should have chosen 17. Standing on the tee there is like being in a Baskin and Robbins, with so many choices.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whitten's warped sense of fun
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2010, 01:10:19 PM »
I wasn't having much fun on hole 12 of Fossil Trace when I hit a perfect second shot down the middle and had to pitch out from behind one of those stupid sandstone outcroppings.  One of the worst holes I've ever played.

I don't think it's a great hole, but it's a fun hole, if for no other reason than because it is unique, in my experience at least.

I am perhaps being only a little facetious when I say that your drive was very obviously not perfect, as it ended up behind the outcropping.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whitten's warped sense of fun
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2010, 01:28:15 PM »
George really needs to cavortate before he postulates. The guy admits he hasn't played but one of the holes mentioned. Get out and do some heavy lifting partner.

Had to do some other heavy lifting with this post, going to Google to find out what cavortate means - guess what popped up first?

John's post!

Anyway, I would never pretend to speak for the masses, unlike many on here and elsewhere.

And perhaps everyone overlooked my smiley - sorry Dan, know you hate 'em, but this group illustrates every single day why they are necessary.

My greater point, which was admittedly borderline absent, is that it's the journey of 18 holes on a special course that is fun. I'd rather play one great course than be teleported around the globe to lpay a bunch of one-offs.

P.S. to JK - while I am a little hurt that you would even think I would talk about myself were I in RW's position, I am touched that you think I'm an average golfer...

-----

Kevin, why do you play golf? If every drive you hit went 320 down the middle, every iron was Johnny Miller at his prime stone dead, and every birdie putt ran true, would you find that fun? Even a lousy golfer like me enjoys the challenge that every shot provides. Oakmont provides a test that is unique, and I find that kinda sad.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2010, 01:32:37 PM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Greg Chambers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whitten's warped sense of fun
« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2010, 01:35:47 PM »
I wasn't having much fun on hole 12 of Fossil Trace when I hit a perfect second shot down the middle and had to pitch out from behind one of those stupid sandstone outcroppings.  One of the worst holes I've ever played.

I don't think it's a great hole, but it's a fun hole, if for no other reason than because it is unique, in my experience at least.

I am perhaps being only a little facetious when I say that your drive was very obviously not perfect, as it ended up behind the outcropping.

You're correct, obviously not perfect since it ended up behind one of THREE OUTCROPPINGS SITTING IN THE MIDDLE OF THE LAYUP ZONE.  Again, one of the worst holes I've ever played.
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whitten's warped sense of fun
« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2010, 01:50:35 PM »
You're correct, obviously not perfect since it ended up behind one of THREE OUTCROPPINGS SITTING IN THE MIDDLE OF THE LAYUP ZONE.  Again, one of the worst holes I've ever played.

Heh heh...understood. I've only played it a couple of times, but never ended up in such dire straits !

There are so many holes I like so much less than that one.  There are holes at FT that I like significantly less than that one. It provides a unique challenge, and if you think that makes it goofy and therefore horrible, I won't fault you for it. I'm sure that if those were huge trees instead of rock outcroppings you'd feel the same way. It's the fact that they ARE rock outcroppings that make it unusual, and I like that fact that they were worked into the hole. C'est la vie.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

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