Which CBM/Raynor design had the fewest template holes?

[Ed Oden]

Anyone?

[TEPaul]

Probably Old White. In reality there only seem to be three---in sequential order, Biarritz (#3), Redan (#8), Short (#18).

But of course this does not mean the architectural overarchers on this website won't try to stretch the interpretation and definition of some of the rest into template holes. 

[Tom MacWood]

Westhampton is most often cited, but I don't believe he designed that course.

[Jeff_Brauer]

How about NGLA.....the first time they are used, they are originals, since they were not direct copies.  Or did his earlier Chicago Golf have those holes, too?  I know Raynor's 1922-3 redo of Chicago had them all.

[TEPaul]

"Westhampton is most often cited, but I don't believe he designed that course."


That is probably one of the best reasons to conclude that he did design that course!

[C. Sturges]

If we agree that Old White has 3 templete holes, Westhampton has more than that.  I find it hard to believe anyone else besides Raynor or CBM designed Westhampton.  I really liked the non template hole Crater at St. Louis CC.  With that, which of there courses has the best land for golf?
Chris

[bill_k]

My vote is for Wanumetonomy.

[Mark McKeever]

Does anyone know which template holes exist at Dedham C&PC?

Mark

[Garland Bayley]

Probably Old White. In reality there only seem to be three---in sequential order, Biarritz (#3), Redan (#8), Short (#18).

But of course this does not mean the architectural overarchers on this website won't try to stretch the interpretation and definition of some of the rest into template holes. 

Bahto's book also says there is a Punch Bowl and a Road Hole.

[Ed Oden]

So, how did they do when designing non-template holes or courses with only a few templates?  Were they as good?  In particular, how did Raynor (with his non-golf background and engineers training) respond when designing with more freedom?  Was creativity unleashed or lacking?

[Mac Plumart]

I think the answer has to be Downer's Grove.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Westhampton is most often cited, but I don't believe he designed that course.

Tom,

Westhampton has:
Punchbowl,
Road,
Redan,
Short,
Long,
Plateau,
Biarritz,
and a few other hybrid templates ?  ?  ?

If he didn't design it, someone sure imitated his style.

[Tom MacWood]

Westhampton is most often cited, but I don't believe he designed that course.

Tom,

Westhampton has:
Punchbowl,
Road,
Redan,
Short,
Long,
Plateau,
Biarritz,
and a few other hybrid templates ?  ?  ?

If he didn't design it, someone sure imitated his style.

Which course CBM/Raynor designed course has fewer?

[TEPaul]

"Which course CBM/Raynor designed course has fewer?"


Patrick:

Would you really want to seriously consider trying to answer someone who writes like that, or thinks like that? And that is not infrequent; it's very regular on here from said poster. The man just has to be either literarily or mentally challenged.
 
 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Westhampton is most often cited, but I don't believe he designed that course.

Tom,

Westhampton has:
Punchbowl,
Road,
Redan,
Short,
Long,
Plateau,
Biarritz,
and a few other hybrid templates ?  ?  ?

If he didn't design it, someone sure imitated his style.

Which course CBM/Raynor designed course has fewer?

Probably Morris County

[Lester George]

Tom Paul,

I might remind you that on the original routing plan and course at Old White the "cape", "narrows", "punchbowl", and "long" were all there.  As you know, we did painstaking research to reinstate these holes.  I am freshing your memory because I know you are getting old and forgetful. 

Lester

[Anthony Gray]

   Merion?

[Travis Dewire]

What exactly constitutes a template hole?

A search on google lead me to an A.W Tillinghast sketch with a a long par 3, with one route to the landing area short right, another over the hazard to the less but still short right, and one to the green. Is this some what accurate?

[Colin Sheehan]

The Yale course may have had the most unusual departures. For examples, the official "descriptions" of the holes from the committee's report includes the following:
Hole 1: Road-Punchbowl  (a combination I don't think exists anywhere else)
Hole 2: Natural, Cape type  (an aggressive Cape green to say the least)
Hole 3: Double Punchbowl  (I don't think I've ever seen Double Punchbowl anywhere else)
Hole 4: Road
Hole 5: Horeshoe, Island (the Short as we know it)
Hole 6: Natural
Hole 7: Natural
Hole 8: Cape-Redan
Hole 9: Biarritz

Hole 10: Apron (I think the word is Apron. It could be Aprox. The feature behind the green is very similar to the back of the 10th at NGLA, "Shinnecock." Regardless, 10 at Yale is a hole unlike anything I've seen on other Mac/Raynor holes)
Hole 11: 2 shot Rev. Redan
Hole 12: Alps
Hole 13: redan
Hole 14: the document says "Natural" though it is a Knoll hole
Hole 15: Eden
Hole 16: Natural
Hole 17: the document says Plateau, though a Double Plateau green
Hole 18: Natural


So while the Yale course has plenty of the usual suspects, but working backwards, holes 18, 16, 10, 7, 3, and 1 are holes/green combinations that are rarely (if ever) seen anywhere else. What would you expect, Macdonald basically came out of retirement to offer his advice and expertise on this project. For all the contributions made by Raynor to the course, Macdonald chose to highly three courses other than National in a special chapter in Scotland's Giflt: Mid Ocean, Lido and Yale. I'm certain he led the intellectual charge to be as aggressive and bold as possible in the planning and execution of the course.

[Travis Dewire]

Are there any previous posts, or resources online that can give a more in depth to what the template holes are? So we can have some reference point.

I can comment on Wanumetonomy, and Dedham, but don't have any idea to comment on their being template holes or not. Does any redan count as a template? Any punch bowl? Or do they have to specifically follow a redan hole, already existing. For instance #6 at BLAH BLAH

does anyone get what i am asking?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Travis,

You might try the search feature as "templates" have been discussed for years on this site.

[Mac Plumart]

To Patrick's point...

here is a thread on a Cape Hole.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41932.0/

I am sure there is one on a Biarritz and many others.

[Tim Gerrish]

I'll add my two cents..  Greenwich CC has an existing punchbowl.  It has been renovated/re-routed several times and may have lost a short (old #10) and....  reverse redan.  NO others apparent..

[George_Bahto]

The key word here is "had"

Greenwich had a pretty full share of these inspriation holes when first built - all were altered or lost

[Patrick_Mucci]

George,

That's interesting.

Why do you think they haven't restored any of them ?