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Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How good is Shadow Creek???
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2010, 06:47:28 PM »
I would guess that it was much more impressive when it was built than now. It must have been something else playing it back in the day...

Matt_Ward

Re: How good is Shadow Creek???
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2010, 01:12:44 PM »
Interesting -- how often times people always connect the Shadow Creek story with the "how it was built" story angle. The dimension of the holes themselves is often relegated to the second page -- if at all.

In 30-40 years from now -- assuming Shadow is still around -- I don't see the course holding on to its stature. Frankly, few people here now see the course as being something special -- from the golf hole perspective.

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How good is Shadow Creek???
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2010, 03:56:26 PM »
Matt:

I do give it a 7 on an overall basis.  Higher on aesthetics and conditioning.

Not sure I agree about it's place in 30 years.  To this crowd maybe but SC will always be a benchmark course for Fazio and to the resort crowd.  If in another 20 years, MGM has to rebuild it again, I'm sure they will.

Matt_Ward

Re: How good is Shadow Creek???
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2010, 04:02:33 PM »
Joel:

I find it hard to fathom how SC gets rated so high -- because I agree it's about the aesthetics and conditioning side of things.

Where is the beef ?

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How good is Shadow Creek???
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2010, 05:22:37 PM »
good read as usual, Gib.

My question is probably best answered by our resident archies.

Do you think the design and most particularly the construction techniques utilized at SC, have made anything more efficient as a matter of learning new construction techniques or manipulating the interface of machines and terrain?  For instance, building the artificial stream, or how to move ground to achieve a certain presentation?   I forget the name of the company that did the stream design, I think it was a sub of Wadsworth, but I believe they did the stream at Barona after SC.  If so, and more streams like this have been attempted, did SC start a body of learned techniques that translate to more efficient and improving efforts each time that sort of thing is attempted?  Does the efforts made for tree and other plantings, inspire any other archies to attempt similar?  

Or, in a contrarian sort of way, did SC teach other designers that it is wasteful and while anything can be done for the money, isn't a desirable goal to go about things so extravagantly, and really added nothing to the body of knowledge within the GCA's repetoire? That essentially, all that was done there was always within the realm of the possible, but who actually wants to go to those extremes to create golf courses?

RJ, a very insiteful question.  One has to look at it in a "then" and "now" context. Then, I was younger and right dap smack in the middle of the whole "Go-Go Golf" era.  Anything was possible and the emphasis seemed to be on creating courses that "Photographed" well.  As we all know, phots are 2-D and tend to flatten out reality so sharper, framed, and bold were sought after.

From a golf construction standpoint, we all looked at it and said, 'wow, that's really pushing the envelope'.  Not the techniques - we all could do that. No, it was the concept. The vision and ability to come up with the concept of building at such a wild scale.  Many older guys couldn't get their head around it.  'why???', 'it will never pay for itself' etc. But for us younger guys, I guess the lesson to be taken from it was, 'if you're gonna do it, don't half-ass it - go full-in'.  Up to that point, archies worked mostly with the land they had. If the land was marginal, odds were the course would be too.  SC wasa watershed moment when developers said 'if the land sucks, make it what you want'  Enter the Terraforming era.  While it wasn't really manifested here in the States or Europe, it set the stage for some courses in Asia that dwarfed SC in their earthmoving.

Now we look back and see it for what it was. An exercise in excess engineering.  But, I still think that it was pivotal, in that it was the direction things were going, incrementally, but SC just jumped us to the end. After SC, things actually started going in the opposite direction because no one could really see one-upping it.  Spending 10x's the average cost to make a piece of dead-flat desert look like North Carolina?  Been there, done that.  One could say the SC  Jumped the Shark and forced us to begin to question the excesses (but TF seemed to make an artificial stream a part of other 18th holes - Caves Valley, Conway Farms come  to mind).  From a golf perspective, it is what one expects from a TF course, well prepared, visually beautiful with holes that don't necessarily beat you up but then don't really stimulate the purest either. Just good, solid, and somewhat expectable golf.
I'm sure in 30 years, the experience will wear thin but it's "Vegas Baby" and they'll think of some new twist so guys can go home and bore their friends with tales of their exploits.
Gib, great read, thanks.
Coasting is a downhill process

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How good is Shadow Creek???
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2010, 07:47:04 PM »
Thanks for the great analysis by an archie, Tim.  I enjoyed it as much as Gib's offering, although in a different way...  ;) ;D 8)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Matt_Ward

Re: How good is Shadow Creek???
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2010, 08:20:14 PM »
Tim:

Great comments -- beyond the construction element you articulated -- the real issue is whether any real depth or visionary holes were created by SC. Frankly, I believe the sum total of how people see TF is manifested in a place like SC.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How good is Shadow Creek???
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2010, 08:40:02 PM »
Joel:

I find it hard to fathom how SC gets rated so high -- because I agree it's about the aesthetics and conditioning side of things.

Where is the beef ?

Matt,

Shadow Creek has broken the $500 cherry of many a rater.  If a man does not look favorably upon his first he will be forced to question his own worth.  I always enjoy hearing the Shadow Creek stories in person where I can witness the gleam in the mans eye as he recalls the day he had Vegas by the balls. It's a magic beyond the architecture.

Peter Pallotta

Re: How good is Shadow Creek???
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2010, 10:10:52 PM »
"The day he had Vegas by the balls" - yup, that's it I think, John. 

(I had a day like that once. After driving into town past midnight and sleeping fitfully for a few hours, I shaved and showered and got dressed and was in the the casino by 5 am -- and then had a run of luck that you can't believe.  For the next few hours, I felt like I was Joe Namath -- drinking and eating and gambling on the house's money, and spreading the wealth around to every dealer and cocktail waitress at The Sands (RIP), happy to be repaid by nothing more than smiling faces. And then I got back into my car, with more money in my pocket than the night before, and headed west, through the scrublands on the way to Los Angeles and the possibility of even greater fortune.)

I wonder if the same doesn't apply elsewhere - "The day I was the king of New York City"..."The day I rolled into Long Island and owned the place".

Peter
 

Adam_Messix

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How good is Shadow Creek???
« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2010, 09:25:27 AM »
All

May I ask you all a question.  Do you think Shadow Creek is overstated or understated? 

Matt_Ward

Re: How good is Shadow Creek???
« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2010, 10:44:59 AM »
Adam:

The former -- the place fits its locale and the symbolism that manifests within Sin City.

SC, in its own way, created the desire by those with mega $$ to top it with their efforts.

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: How good is Shadow Creek???
« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2010, 10:59:09 AM »
I don't think you can say anything but "overstated," if I understand the question.  Pheasants and pine needles in the desert?  But that is so much Las Vegas--overstated in a very clear, but fun, way.  You just can't take it seriously.

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How good is Shadow Creek???
« Reply #37 on: December 05, 2010, 09:12:37 AM »
I had the opportunity to play SC on Wednesday and was VERY impressed with the golf course. Not just the fact that everything is man made and the extent that Fazio and Wynn went to to create a golf course that is extremely secluded, extremely detailed and has a VERY good variety of golf holes. The conditioning is flawless, as you'd expect as is the service and experience.
  From my understanding, the new greens are much more difficult and contoured than the greens before the renovation.  Some greens are perched, some sit down in a bowl, but generally, no 2 greens are the same. The fairways have very good movement, slope off into bunkers, away from bunkers, etc.
  The par 3 are all of a different distance, there is reachable par 5's and a drivable par 4. I personally felt that I couldnt just blast it off the tee on everty hole as there is a lot of plantings to be concerned about along with the fact that many of the fairway bunkers are quite deep.
  I personally would rate Shadow Creek in the Top 10 that I have played, along with Kinloch, Dallas National, Crystal Downs, TPC, Shinnecock, BBlack, Honors, Lost Dunes and Friars Head.




Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How good is Shadow Creek???
« Reply #38 on: December 05, 2010, 11:44:46 AM »
Tony,

Thanks for the pics.
It's all about the golf!

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How good is Shadow Creek???
« Reply #39 on: December 05, 2010, 07:44:42 PM »
Too call SC over stated is ridiculous. TF purposely created a low key, solid golf course. Tony got it. Matt. If it was over stated you'd be singing it's praises. Imo
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

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