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Bryan Izatt

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The Most Uphill Course in the World (?)
« on: November 25, 2010, 07:43:00 PM »

It is my perception, based on playing many courses in many locales, that architects generally choose to route courses on hilly sites mostly downhill, along ridges or valleys, or angling up hillsides.  The hard work of going uphill is often left to walks (or cart rides) up the hills.

Which brings me to my recently new home course - the North Course at Bond Head - designed by Jason Straka of Hurdzan-Fry.  It is on a hilly site with a creek valley meandering through it.  Mr. Straka chose to route the course straight up several large inclines - some close to 100 feet from bottom to top.  There are 9 holes that are significantly uphill;  5 that are significantly downhill and 4 that are relatively level.

After doing some measuring of elevation changes from tee to green, I found that in the 18 holes there is a net elevation climb of about 250 feet.  If you take only the 9 uphill holes there is an astonishing rise of 450 feet that must be played up.  If you consider that some of the uphill holes play down off the tee and then up to the green, you end up having to play almost 500 feet uphill!  :o

Is taking on uphills directly good routing or not?

Seems to me this could be the most uphill course in the world, but I always stand to be corrected by those more widely experienced than I.

Here are some pictures of the uphill holes.















Chip Gaskins

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Re: The Most Uphill Course in the World (?)
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2010, 07:54:08 PM »
Where in the world do I hit the ball off the tee in that first picture, wow.

Mike Wagner

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Re: The Most Uphill Course in the World (?)
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2010, 08:09:13 PM »
Course look cool.  As far as the hilliest, I played one on the Big Island (can't remember the name)  - but any more slope and you couldn't play golf.  This course looks very playable with - great strategic plays in the photos.


Bryan Izatt

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Re: The Most Uphill Course in the World (?)
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2010, 08:18:47 PM »

Chip,

Well that depends on how far you hit it, the wind, and which tee you're playing.  It's the 2nd hole, so is a brute so early in the round because of the forced carry.  If you played the back tee, the carry to the right side of the fairway is about 260 to 270 yards.  That's the bad side for the shortish second shot; uphill about 50 feet to a blind shallow green.  The preferred line is to the upper left fairway, but it is a more daunting carry - more like 300 yards - and narrow, but provides a short second shot up the green with less elevation, but still blind.

The hole gets your attention so early in the round.


Karl Kocher

Re: The Most Uphill Course in the World (?)
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2010, 08:37:38 PM »
While playing uphill requires then down at some point, the uphill holes at Chambers Bay I thought were severe.   They are also consistently uphill on very long holes, not flat fairway to perched greens.  And I dare you to walk and carry.  :'( 

Steve Lang

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Re: The Most Uphill Course in the World (?)
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2010, 08:59:25 PM »
 8) you have to walk and carry or push/pull a cart at Chambers bay...

those holes don't seem that bad.. wht is the elevation change and/or physical slope?
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Tom_Doak

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Re: The Most Uphill Course in the World (?)
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2010, 09:20:45 PM »
Bryan,

450 feet of uphill holes is probably not a record.  I would guess Kapalua Plantation is around that same number.  Pasatiempo would be close, too ... three holes go up 90 feet each, and they are not the only uphill ones.

However, I can't think of a course where the uphill exceeds the downhill.  That's really odd.  You mean there are several holes where you would walk DOWN to the tee, and hardly any where the next tee is up the hill?

As to routing up and down the hills versus cross-slope, sometimes it is appropriate. We did that at Stone Eagle to utilize the canyons and preserve the rock ridges between holes, instead of filling and cutting and revegetating them.

Bryan Izatt

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Re: The Most Uphill Course in the World (?)
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2010, 12:41:01 AM »
Tom,

I have not been to Kapalua or Pasatiempo so can't comment, although I'd be interested if anyone has some numbers.  BTW the largest single hole elevation I've seen was at Gourock, outside Glasgow.  The first hole ramps 135 feet up a hill to upper heathland holes.  An exhausting walk for a first hole.

Yeah, struck me as unusual - maybe not odd.  And yes the routing takes you down from greens to following tees: 1st green to 2nd tee, -40 feet;  3rd to 4th, -20 feet;  5th to 6th, -20 feet;  7th to 8th, -30 feet;  10th to 11th, -15 feet;  11th to 12th, -25 feet; and, 16th to 17th, -15 feet.  All but two of the rest are essentially level.  The two that go up are probably less than 10 feet.  Unusual.  

Here's a picture looking back up the 8th towards the tees to the 7th green above the crater at the top of the hill.





Brian_Ewen

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Re: The Most Uphill Course in the World (?)
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2010, 12:58:37 AM »
Front 9 of Dufftown takes some beating .

(And the Back 9 for a downhill Nine )

Bryan Izatt

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Re: The Most Uphill Course in the World (?)
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2010, 01:51:08 AM »
Certainly looks hilly, but I get it at less than 430 feet up from the 1st tee to the 9th tee which looks to be the highest point on the course.  And some of that elevation is between holes.  And the back nine appears to give it all back.   Interesting looking place.  I think I must have driven right by it last summer. This one hole alone gives back most of the elevation if you believe their annotation (which I think might be overstated by 100 feet).  Interesting mowing patterns.  Looks like they changed their mind mid-hole.



  
« Last Edit: November 26, 2010, 01:52:54 AM by Bryan Izatt »

Jon Wiggett

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Re: The Most Uphill Course in the World (?)
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2010, 02:45:35 AM »
Galashiels in the Scottish Borders has (had?) several holes with quite an incline. Otherwise Dewsbury where I and fellow GCAer Dean Stokes learned our golf is no slouch in the hill department.

Jon

John Chilver-Stainer

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Re: The Most Uphill Course in the World (?)
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2010, 05:24:56 AM »
Jon, what about Gotthard GC, in Realp in Switzerland.

The proverbial goat track where the steepest Par 4 played up hill has to be played with at least a 5-iron from the Tee to get a trajectory sufficient enough to overcome the slope.

A Driver would just slam into the fairway after 30 yards.

Jon Wiggett

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Re: The Most Uphill Course in the World (?)
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2010, 06:27:14 AM »
Jon, what about Gotthard GC, in Realp in Switzerland.

The proverbial goat track where the steepest Par 4 played up hill has to be played with at least a 5-iron from the Tee to get a trajectory sufficient enough to overcome the slope.

A Driver would just slam into the fairway after 30 yards.


Good call John. I had forgotten about Gottard Realp. More of a cliff than a slope requiring a skied driver to get the required Trajectory ;)

Jon

Mark Pearce

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Re: The Most Uphill Course in the World (?)
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2010, 08:11:06 AM »
I'm always intrigued by the course (I'm not sure of its name) which sits next to the artificial ski slope in Edinburgh.  The last hole plays parallel to the ski slope!
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Doug Ralston

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Re: The Most Uphill Course in the World (?)
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2010, 09:22:35 AM »
Consider 'Olde Beau' near Sparta, NC; in those beautiful mountains. I think total elevation change on the course is near 1500 feet, with nearly as much uphill as down. Not everyones cup of tea, but I though it a blast to play.

http://www.oldebeau.com/

Doug
Where is everybody? Where is Tommy N? Where is John K? Where is Jay F? What has happened here? Has my absence caused this chaos? I'm sorry. All my rowdy friends have settled down ......... somewhere else!

John Chilver-Stainer

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Re: The Most Uphill Course in the World (?)
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2010, 03:30:18 PM »
Mark,

The course you’re referring to is the 18-Hole Lothianburn G.C. (1893) a James Braid course, which has some serious hill climbs as well, but also some great views towards the city.

Next to Lothianburn is Swanston G.C. (1924) which is an 18-Hole recently redesigned in 2006 to take out some of the major hill walking and replace them with more comfortable holes and the addition of a Par 3 9-Hole practise course.

I have some odd memories of skiing under the floodlights at the Hillend artificial ski slope in Edinburgh.

It can be a surreal experience, like negotiating a giant toothbrush – to get the bobble on your hat to fly horizontal one had to smear floor polish on the soles of the skis and do the kamikaze tuck straight down the fall line.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2010, 04:25:12 PM by John Chilver-Stainer »

Bryan Izatt

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Re: The Most Uphill Course in the World (?)
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2010, 06:22:15 PM »

Doug,

Based on Old Beau's web site pictures and Google Earth elevations it looks like 9 and 18 are seriously uphill.  There may be one other signifiant uphiller, but others substantially down hill or neutral tee to green.  Not sure about the 1500 feet.  Is that up and down through every ravine on the site?  I was trying to base it on tee to green elevations.  I'd guess Old Beau is net downhill.


Bryan Izatt

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Re: The Most Uphill Course in the World (?)
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2010, 06:29:23 PM »
Lothianburn looks to have a hole one removed from the ski hill that appears to go up 120 feet, but I'm betting the course is net neutral.

I'm not sure that this is really skiing by any common definition though.   ;D






Bryan Izatt

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Re: The Most Uphill Course in the World (?)
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2010, 12:42:41 AM »
Jon, what about Gotthard GC, in Realp in Switzerland.

The proverbial goat track where the steepest Par 4 played up hill has to be played with at least a 5-iron from the Tee to get a trajectory sufficient enough to overcome the slope.

A Driver would just slam into the fairway after 30 yards.


Good call John. I had forgotten about Gottard Realp. More of a cliff than a slope requiring a skied driver to get the required Trajectory ;)

Jon


Not sure what hole you are referring to.  Is it one of these in the picture or somewhere else on the course? I think these are the 4th and 2nd greens with the 3rd tee on top of the hillock.





Kevin Pallier

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Re: The Most Uphill Course in the World (?)
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2010, 01:22:53 AM »
A course I find testing in terms of movement is Tura Beach in NSW (Aust) - it goes from sea-level and up / down many hills. Am not sure of the specific terrain movements but maybe the complaint box is in the wrong place  ;D

An example of where you go from....


to where you go to....


Complaint Box

John Chilver-Stainer

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Re: The Most Uphill Course in the World (?)
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2010, 10:10:03 AM »
Hi  Brian,

Thanks for the pic, that is indeed Gotthard G.C. at Realp with the 2nd Green behind, the 3rd Tee on the hill, the 3rd Fairway to the left. The 4th Fairway in the foreground leading directly to the 4th Green below.

Your photo is taken looking down the hill from the 4th Tee and is slightly misleading as it doesn’t reveal the true inclination of the slope  which at this point is roughly 1:5. or 20%. and gradually reduces.

I’ve attached an old pic of “yours truly” on my only visit in the late 90’s (you can tell from the white shoes and the Taylor Made Titanium Driver) , having a swipe from the then 4th Tee in Realp. In the background one can get an impression of the elevation and steepness to the valley below.




If one slides over to the right of your pic you can just see a bunker of the 5th Green, which is at the top of the slope. The 5th tee is near a bright green net at the bottom. This is the hole I was referring to, the "South Wall" 5th.
The inclination at this part of the slope is much steeper, quite hard work to walk up at this altitude (about 5’200 feet above sea level).

It appears they have shortened the hole significantly since I played there. If my memory serves me right the original Back Tee was tucked near the bottom of the hill where it was very steep and the hole was much longer. However due to the steepness of the initial slope, maybe 1:3 a driver off the Tee was unthinkable and the Green virtually unreachable, thus in my memory this was a Par 4, albeit a short one, as was was implied on the course card.




They’ve sensibly shortened it further up the hill and to the side to make a 140 yards Par 3 and have constructed a raised platform for the Tee to make the hole more playable.
This photo lifted from their website shows the new Tee.




The swiss golfers, who love their “Bergwanderung” have no qualms humping it up and down hills, as you can see on your pic there are plenty of golfers out on the course.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2010, 12:32:41 PM by John Chilver-Stainer »

Chris Cupit

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Re: The Most Uphill Course in the World (?)
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2010, 03:56:39 PM »
Echelon in Atlanta is very steep and has numerous uphill slogs.  Thankfully my mind has erased most of the memories but I think #9, #12, #15, #18 were very uphill.  The classic  :P though was a par five on the back of about 475 yards.  Straight away and straight uphill.  I played with a guy whose approach shot came up 5-10 yards short of the green and rolled back 60-70 yards BEHIND where he played his pitch from!

The hole has several terraces that try and prevent that from happening.  The drought (2007) meant the fairways were brick hard and fast and that hole was simply laughable.  It would be an awesome ski run.

Eric Olsen

Re: The Most Uphill Course in the World (?)
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2010, 04:51:21 PM »
The "Trail" nine at Port Ludlow Washington was the most uphill course I ever played.  My brothers and I played there years ago.  We asked if it was walkable and the pro said, I walked it once.  Every hole continued to climb uphill.  It was brutal.  Don't think I have any pics from that nine holes...

Steve_Lovett

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Re: The Most Uphill Course in the World (?)
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2010, 06:02:40 PM »
The "Trail" nine at Port Ludlow Washington was the most uphill course I ever played.  My brothers and I played there years ago.  We asked if it was walkable and the pro said, I walked it once.  Every hole continued to climb uphill.  It was brutal.  Don't think I have any pics from that nine holes...

I think the ill-conceived Trail Nine is now closed - and the Port Ludlow course has returned to its original 18-hole configuration. 

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: The Most Uphill Course in the World (?)
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2010, 10:05:37 PM »
This makes Painswick seem like a nice flat course.