[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

Why don't you scroll backwards you will see mine listed.

BD = #11 & #12 ?

What about the 6th -- ever play it in a summer wind ?

Old Mac = where is the 17th and even the 18th ?

Also, how can you leave out the 3rd and the 5th ?

In regards to Pac -- you did raise my hair -- the 15th ?

On BT -- how did you miss the par-3 5th ?

[Tim Bert]

Matt - We've hashed out a few of these before.  You and I are looking at the holes through a very different lens.  One long hitter, pretty low handicap player and one medium-to-short hitter mid-handicapper where different holes can present different challenges that probably aren't apparent to you.

Bandon Dunes #11 is one of my favorites on that course.  It is a long challenging par 4 that uses the fairway bunkers to progressively push you farther and farther from the ideal line to the green.  The pot bunker in front of the green is one of the most dominating on the resort on a pound per square foot basis.  There are some big bunkers out there that dominate some holes like Pacific #6 and Bandon #15, but in my opinion there are no small to mid size bunkers that command the attention on the approach at the entire resort - including the road hole bunker and strath bunker at Old Macdonald.

Bandon Dunes #12 is a fun "short" par 3, though not usually as short as the yardage would indicate.  Much like #11, the bunker there dictates some of the play, but the big knob to the back right of the hole can cause just as much trouble.  Birdie is a real possiblity here for the average golfer, but so is a blow-up.  I like the setting even better than #6.

#6 is an all-world view combined with an all - ho hum hole.  Yes, I have played in the summer wind.  In fact 7 of my 8 rounds there have been in a summer wind, so in a sense my opinions are probably too biased by the summer wind.  #6 is a tough birdie, so for a guy like you that expects par and looks for a birdie test then I'm sure it scores big.  The long green makes it tough to put it close.  For a guy like me that is hoping to get it on the green or just around the green to leave myself a shot for par or just a bogey - there's nothing to it.  I've kept pretty diligent scoring records on all the holes at the resort and for the entire group of people I've played with this hole ranks amongst the easiest out there for people that have played in my group.  It is a par and bogey fest.  No birdies, rarely a double, and never a blow-up.  Just pretty views.

Old Macdonald #17 likely highlights the disjoint of the skilled golfer and the unskilled golfer.  We had a hefty winter wind blowing despite the fact that it was Memorial Day and it seemed that a summer breeze should be in order.  The tee shot was almost unplayable for me.  Pinched down way to tight, yet the hole felt way to long to simply lay-up.  Between the water and the dune-filled waste areas on the left, it was very unlike the vast fairways on the rest of the course.  If I was a bomber I would have loved the hole and I would probably enjoy it at my skill level with a helping wind or with a tee that was moved forward.  There's some beautiful bunkering and a great green here.  Even without the tee issues, I still don't think I put it at a 5-star, but there's nothing wrong with a 4-star hole either.

Old Macdonald #18 - A clear 4-star in my mind.  I loved it and I loved the green, but I didn't put it in the class with the Alps, Eden, Long, etc as the best out there.

I had the 3rd on my list originally and then deleted it.  Another easy 4-star and I wouldn't argue with anyone that called it 5-star.

I did list the 5th hole at Old Macdonald despite your implication that I left it off the list.

Pacific Dunes 15 - Another example of disjoint in skill level.  For you this is probably a ho-hum 2-shot par 5 land filler.  For me there is so much going on every shot, in both a winter wind and a summer wind.  In the summer, I get the thrill of feeling like a big hitter and going for it in two, despite the fact that the green is so difficult to hold that I know it isn't going to happen.  Of course, I have to contend with the bunkers and the gorse on my tee shot, so I can't just blast away.  A well struck drive often runs out into the bunkers on the right.  The second shot brings multiple cross bunkers into play and I have to figure out where I want to position the final approach without getting in one of those bunkers.  Finally, the hump on the green is a real SOB!  It bullies me around at will and when you get a pin on the right side of the green and leave your approach to that side as well, you've put yourself in jail.  I've been next to the green in 2 and walked off the hole with a 7 and there isn't even a greenside bunker to be found.  Pure fun!  For me, it is the best par 5 at Pacific Dunes, and the only one that even comes close is #3.

I didn't even put that one on my list, but now I'm tempted!

Bandon Trails #5 - A beautiful hole and a 4-star in my book.  I think Old Mac #5 and Pac Dunes #11 and Pac Dunes #14 all outshine it as short par 3s at the resort, so I can't put it in the 5-star class.

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

Please don't go to stereotypes in determining how I picked the holes I did.

Mine were picked from a combination of viewpoints.

I'll discuss more tomorrow.

thanks,

[Tim Bert]

Matt - I put a lot more into that post than stereotypes. I just brought that up because I've read your analysis of 15 at Pac Dunes as a mostly filler hole on another thread and I think the only way you can assess it that way is to disregard how much special is going on there for the vast majority that play it.

I am happy to hear your thoughts and I don't have any problems with you landing on a different opinion but I think I gave you plenty of details to back up my choicesan why I picked them (or left them off the list).

Tim

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

We agree to disagree / re: the 15th at Pac. There are far better par-5's at the complex for that hole to somehow jump to the front of the line. You can add the 3rd at Pac as even better hole because of the infinite ways of strategic decisions that need to be made.

I provided my listing of holes previously and I stand by them.

You left off Old Mac's #3 and frankly it is miles beyond the 11th at BD. Not even in the same ballpark.

I will comment further later ...

[Sven Nilsen]

Tim:

We agree to disagree / re: the 15th at Pac. There are far better par-5's at the complex for that hole to somehow jump to the front of the line. You can add the 3rd at Pac as even better hole because of the infinite ways of strategic decisions that need to be made.

I provided my listing of holes previously and I stand by them.

You left off Old Mac's #3 and frankly it is miles beyond the 11th at BD. Not even in the same ballpark.

I will comment further later ...

Matt:

I am flabergasted that in the same post you say you can "agree to disagree" with Tim, yet continue to criticize his picks.  Its his opinion, and therefore can never be wrong (although I'd surmise that 15 at PD doesn't make most peoples list of favorite par 5's at Bandon). 

If your goal is to be confrontational, so be it, you succeed.  If, however, you simply are unable to accept and/or appreciate any viewpoints that do not match your own, its a sad and lonely road you venture down.

Sven

[Matt_Ward]

Sven:

Hold off on the pissing and moaning -- I am free to disagree with him and he with me.

Nothing more than that -- so don't blow things out of proportion please.

Stop with this thin-skinned baby stuff about being confrontational.

The back and forth dialogues aren't about right and wrong -- just trying to dig deeper into the reasoning for such choices.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven:

Hold off on the pissing and moaning -- I am free to disagree with him and he with me.

Nothing more than that -- so don't blow things out of proportion please.

Stop with this thin-skinned baby stuff about being confrontational.

The back and forth dialogues aren't about right and wrong -- just trying to dig deeper into the reasoning for such choices.

Matt:

I appreciate the candor in your response (the tone of which was entirely consistent with your "GCA presence").  If you are indeed attempting to appreciate differing viewpoints, then I commend and respect your open-mindedness.  However, in light of the general tone of your responses in this thread and on others from this site, I find it hard to believe that is the case. 

As for Tim's points above, I'd add the following:

1.  Tim asked you for your 5 star holes (which I assume is different from your all Bandon 18 list in your post on the first page).  I, too, would be interested in hearing which holes you'd consider to be 5 star.  My 5 star list:

BD - 4, 5, 12,
PD - 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 11, 13, 17
BT - 3, 6, 8, 13, 14, 15, 17
OM - 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 16, 18

2.  Put me in the camp that doesn't think the 6th at BD is that great.  Its a tough hole in any wind, but when compared to its immediate neighbor (the 11th at PD), it pales.  I also think its place in the routing hurts its reputation.  After 4 and 5, the novelty of playing along the ocean has worn off a bit, and you're at the start of what I think is the weakest stretch at BD (6 - 9).

3.  To me, 15 at PD is the 4th best par 5 on the course.  I put it below 12 and 18.  12 to me is the most subtle hole on the course.  One lone central hazard, a green that is reachable, but only if distance and line are judged accurately.  A low running approach that finds the left to right sweep in the fairway is an exhilarating shot to watch. 

[Matt_Ward]

Sven:

Look, I tried to explain my position in a nice way -- if you don't believe it then frankly I could care less.

I don't need the parental lecture about my "tone." Save it for someone else -- thanks.

The 15th at Pac is behind the likes of #3 and #18 in my mind. You say it's "sublte," -- I say its empty when held against the high standard that Pac demonstrates elsewhere. You opinion - so be it. We disagree.

By the way -- my holes for the entire layout have been posted already. Do some scrolling and you will find them.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven:

Look, I tried to explain my position in a nice way -- if you don't believe it then frankly I could care less.

I don't need the parental lecture about my "tone." Save it for someone else -- thanks.

The 15th at Pac is behind the likes of #3 and #18 in my mind. You say it's "sublte," -- I say its empty when held against the high standard that Pac demonstrates elsewhere. You opinion - so be it. We disagree.

By the way -- my holes for the entire layout have been posted already. Do some scrolling and you will find them.

Do you even read what other people write?  I was discussing the 12th, not the 15th.

As for your list of holes, I was just following up on Tim's request for you to list your 5 star holes (not your entire layout).  And yes, I did scroll up and reread your post.

[Matt_Ward]

Sven:

The holes I listed for an all-star 18 at Bandon are top tier in my mind.

I don't list them as 5-star -- they are first rate and I listed them with that thought process.

Mea culpa on my part for the 15th -- but I see both #12 and #15 as filler holes at Pac. Doak had to transition a hole to get to the stellar 13th and the 12th added up yardage -- it is far from being a top shelf par-5 hole in my mind when held against the likes of the par-5 3rd hole there.

My original point was that Old Mac and Pac likely would have no less than 2/3's of the total holes for an all-18 layout at Bandon. Do you see that point in error ?

[Sven Nilsen]

Matt:

I'd have 3 or 4 holes from BD and about 7 or 8 holes from each of PD, OM and BT.  I'm one of the folks on here that thinks BT is slightly underrated.  I'm a fan of 14 and 16 there, and think there really aren't any weak holes on the course.  Its a great tee ball track from start to finish, and if you're hitting your driver well, there aren't many other courses that can compete with it for the fun factor.

As a result, I'd have betwen a 1/2 and 2/3rds of the total coming from PD and OM.

[Matt_Ward]

Sven:

BT is flat after you play the par-3 5th hole -- and until you reach the approach for the par-4 13th.

C&C didn't anything special with the holes in that middle sequence in my mind.

We do share agreement on holes #14 and #16. I really like the former even though many cry babies here and elsewhere don't seem to like it.

For my money -- Old Mac could easily have nine of the holes listed. It's just that much better than so many believe and frankly I see it as a better overall course than even Pac.

[Gary Daughters]

Matt,

#7 at BT is flat?

[Sven Nilsen]

I seem to recall a pretty good sized hill on 6 as well, not to mention the cascading nature of the 11th fairway.

[Gary Daughters]

#11 is not flat.

Here's #6.  Is this flat?

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

What I mean by "flat" is like when you have Pepsi and the bottle been open for quite some time -- the flavor is FLAT.

C&C have done better in plenty of other situations -- I see the middle sequence of holes at BT as a major weakness when held against the rest.

[Michael Dugger]

Go ahead and zip it now, Ward, your opinion is flaccid.

I love the stretch from 6-8.  Great golf.

#11 is also a very nice hole.  Demanding but peaceful.  Good stuff.

[Matt_Ward]

Michael:

Glad you can weigh in with your brilliance.

Flaccid  -- OK 

Knock yourself out and play them to your hearts content.

[Sven Nilsen]

Matt:

I am going to have to object to the description of 6 - 13 as flat (however its defined).

6 - Awesome strategic hole, play a shorter club out to the left and face a more difficult approach, or blast your drive past the first bunker and hope you skirt by the hidden trap down the hill.  I really like how the traps protect the ideal line.  Its also another one of C&C's great green settings at BT. 

7 - A beast, a challenge every time I've played it.

8 - A great balance to 7 and to 9.  Options off the tee (blast it or lay up to a comfortable club distance), and a green that has a multitude of great pin locations.  I love how this hole can punish the over ambitious.

9 - As subtle as 12 is on PD, I think this hole is the most subtle at BT.  A tee shot that calls for a draw (we're talking a right-handers language here), reachable for the bombers, plenty of little quirks to get in your head on the layup and the approach.  There's a lot going on here for a hole that looks fairly benign.

10 - Widely seen as the weakest in the bunch, but I happen to like holes that ask you to draw it off the tee and play a fade on your second. 

11 - M. Dugger has it right on the peaceful nature of the green setting.  This hole is about judgment.  You have to play away from what looks like the ideal line, and then on your second determine just how much it will take to shuttle down the hill.

12 - Probably the most one dimensional hole of the bunch, the play to me always seems to be to aim for the left side of the green and hope you get a good bounce or catch the right slot to feed to the pin.

13 - Not flat, not flaccid, plenty of fizz.  There are few better feelings at Bandon then executing two good shots in a row to get on this green.  And if one of your playing partners ends up in the right bunker, you'll have the entertainment of watching them try to shovel their way out.  (The open area between 12 and 13 may be my favorite spot on the course, its a magical setting, especially anytime there's a light fog in the air.  If you're playing with more than one group, this "meeting place" is a great spot to quickly trade war stories, or hand back the wedge Jimbo left in the sand mine near the tenth green.)

Its a great run, and with 14, 15, 16 and 17 to follow, the anticipation keeps building throughout the round.  If you can play this stretch well, you probably have the confidence to take on the closing stretch.  If not, hopefully you've enjoyed your walk in the woods.

[Gary Daughters]

Gents:

What I mean by "flat" is like when you have Pepsi and the bottle been open for quite some time -- the flavor is FLAT.

That is just precious

[William_G]

Sven,

+1, I'm  a Trails fan.

It's underrated because it's not on the ocean, in the forest most of the time, however the holes themselves are everything you need. You have to hit golf shots.

I liken it to going in from from the ocean for a picnic, perfect spot to the left of #9 green.

It's nice how you don't see other groups most of the round because of the routing.

It's also very difficult, and I know that's why a lot of people dismiss Trails and now love Old Mac.

At Old Mac, you will likely never lose a ball regardless of your handicap, whereas at Trails you could lose a dozen.

[Tim Bert]

It's nice how you don't see other groups most of the round because of the routing.

Actually I think the reason you don't see other groups is because they are playing the other courses, but hypothetically if they were playing Trails you might not see them due to the routing.   

[William_G]

It's nice how you don't see other groups most of the round because of the routing.

Actually I think the reason you don't see other groups is because they are playing the other courses, but hypothetically if they were playing Trails you might not see them due to the routing.   

hahaha, that's funny

[Matt_Ward]

Bill G:

The measurement of greatness at BT is because one can lose a dozen or so golf balls.

OK - now I get it.

Sven:

The issue is does the middle stretch of holes equal the one prior and post at BT. If you think it does then you see things completely different than I and likely others as well.

The 6th, I concede, is one of the best holes in the middle stretch -- likely the most strategic and thought provoking.

The 7th is simply bombs away from the tee and then have a relatively mid to long approach shot.

The 8th is a letdown -- just a short par-4 hole with little real qualities to it. Hold the hole against the other classic short par-4 holes at Bandon and you see the 8th as nothing more than a bit player.

The 9th is just a yardage-eater -- very little to it and frankly you play three shots to then hit a green which is fairly pedestrian.

The 10th is what you mentioned -- a weak hole.

The 11th is all tee shot -- the approach is fairly basic and quite simplistic.

The 12th is what you also mentioned -- one-dimensional -- a long approach with little to distinguish itself.

I admitted the approach at #13 is special -- the aproach to the green is one of the best at BT.

C&C -- did a fairly solid job at BT -- but the beginning and ending stretch of holes is what makes playing the course special -- the middle is really a snoozefest given the high bar of design they generally provide in my opinion.

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