high praise from Whitten re Castle Stuart

[Gary Slatter]

Melvyn,

Wasn't Cruden Bay built for tourists?

Mark

I was told, at Cruden Bay, it was built for the local farmers.

[Jon Wiggett]

Melvyn,

Wasn't Cruden Bay built for tourists?

Mark

I was told, at Cruden Bay, it was built for the local farmers.

Gary,

Indeed that is correct. I believe they also built a railway line at the same time so the farmers could get their cattle to market easier

Stan,

I have noticed that many of the clubs have such agreements with each other and this should be welcomed. I was not trying to knock RD for its green fee policy but just making the point that CS did have a lower rate for LOCALS contrary to what some on this site think.

Jon

[Melvyn Morrow]

Cruden Bay was built by the Railway Company who purchased the land from The Earl of Erroll. This started in 1894.

There was 9 hole course already their built by The Earls brother or brother–in law. This 9 hole course was closed in early 1895 as the new station for Cruden Bay was built over the course. The new course also known as Port Erroll until 1899 was built and operational in 1896/7 excluding the 9 hole St Olaf. The 1896/7 course was modified to accommodate St Olaf course in 1898/9.

The course was designed in the standard Scottish traditional way for the Home market serviced by the railways, know nothing about sheep farmers unless you are referring to The Earl or the Cathcart’s (Cluny Estates) who took over the Earl’s estates. 

Melvyn

[Melvyn Morrow]

Cruden Bay Hotel built by the Railway Company 1899



Melvyn

[Niall C]

Niall,

Please accept my apology for mixing the vowels in your name. As I hit the post button, it caught my eye...my bad.
To take the advice of our fearless, astute site-host Ran, once we've responded to a post once or twice, to share insights or express differences, not much more can be gained and I certainly don't wish to waste more of your, or my, valuable time. We can simply move on.

I've always felt most folks on here are class acts. I certainly include you, David and others in that mix and have enjoyed reading your posts. I may, if something really stokes my coals, use strong language to convey my view. Some get riled up. There's no sin in that.
But when people chime in and don't even address the questions; well, let's just say there is liitle contribution being made there. I may comment on what someone has said, but it usually is addressed within the context of what is being asked. Nuff Said.

I have no problem with "responsible" development of any kind. Castle Stuart, which I saw during the early days of construction in 2007, had all the ingredients to be a superb track. I believe they delivered, though I've yet to play it. Let me say, so there is no confusion, the CS team are caliber guys that really try to get it right. I know that what they presented to me, of their plans at that time, had respect for the region and the community, front and center.

In fact, some on the CS team created Kingsbarns, which to date, in the excellent presentaion I enjoyed in 2001, was the best newer golf course I've played. That alone, should confirm my respect for the effort and craft those folks commit to a project.

This tour event, if it comes, will have significant impacts, long-term, on the region. Life sure as hell won't get cheaper for the locals.

I would greatly enjoy hosting you, David and others at RD, when my wife and I are over next. David is quite fond of Golspie and I've never played it. I couldn't imagine a much better way to play that course than with someone who enjoys the place as much as he does. Brora is an absolute cracker of "jolly golf." I love the place and believe you may as well.

A gentle reminder Niall, I'm very sensitive to the Scottish Clearances, regarding their history. Unfortunately, Mr. Trump has threatened the very"compulsory...whatever" you reference. Essentially, having the remaining landowners forced off their land, with some remuneration of course. How civil.
So you can plainly see, it's not that much of a potential difference, just absent the brutality. If it is permitted there, where will it stop. Remember, some of this land was the most "protected" SSI ground in Scotland. It didn't matter did it? Donald got his way...what's next?


Jon,

I may have been aboard that Titanic in another life! Sometimes, I think we all can feel that way. Tourism is the lifeblood of the Highlands. That will continue to be the magnificant mecca it is, only if its beauty and fragile ecosystems are preserved. Big money hasn't totally forced its way in to alter the landscape...yet, which if allowed, will ruin that area.

What's to come, tacky strip malls and the cookie cutter food chains slammed in right next to the Tesco's. Subdivisions dotting the hillsides and lower meadows. Come on, that's EXACTLY what will happen. And those that opened the floodgates, together with all of us, should hang our heads in shame. Look at the world's special places...they keep all that crap well away.

To your question of RD's green fees. First, it is a matter for the club to decide. I have no input, am on no committee and feel they, the club, have done, in the main, a superb job on their pricing of fees. These thoughts, and those that follow, are strictly my personal views. The fee structures across Scotland, indeed, across the world, just went kooky in that 2005-08 window. Overseas clubs saw the extortionate fees being charged in the U.S., had plenty of Yanks and Europeans, conditioned somewhat to paying heavy fees, that were visiting, and went for it.

The Northern Highlands, in the past, always seemed to be the best value region, for quality, in Scotland. RD generally was at the higher end on that scale, and the presentation, save a brief period of "Americanitis" that saw grossly overfertilized and soft conditions, delivered a superb experience, that their fee reflected. I can tell you, our annual member fees certainly always got a bump up each year, and we were taking in plenty of money during many of those years. To be fair, it was generally a modest boost, so few complained.

When the economy tanked, RD were on 80 quid, or so, I believe, for visitor weekday play. I don't think that's moved in at least a year, maybe two. When you compare that to what other top-tier Scottish tracks are charging, that's a steal. I'll refrain from calling out the real criminals, but some quick homework will confirm the value of RD. That OPEN rota surcharge is really special.

Now, when Castle Stuart entered the fray, and opened with 150 quid fees, that was a bit of a shock. I know their model, with associated land/development costs etc. is different. But to charge nearly double, what RD's  visitor fee is...wow. To their credit, they have given the Scots considerable discounted rates.

The problem is, it's almost impossible to prevent an upward, drafting effect, being the net result of such a quantum leap at the top, in visitor pricing for that region. Other courses and clubs in the area will feel justified in upping theirs to keep pace with the new bar. There isn't a course on the planet twice as good as Dornoch, or worth twice the fee, though some get it. That's no knock on Castle Stuart, or anywhere else, RD is just that good in my view. I felt that way the first time I played it; nothing I've played since has changed my mind.

See, in the end, that is the danger of constantly escalating the costs, to do damn near anything, in an area. It becomes unaffordable, even though it is unsustainable, for those less-monied to live there long-term. That end game will be a disaster for the North Highlands...as it is, and has been, virtually anywhere else in the world that scenario develops. It is rife in America and many other places. I fear the lessons are being ignored by many. Let's hope things get better. I'm an optimist by nature, though tempered by reality. 

Cheers

Kris

Thank you for that. Its clear to me that we have more views in common than are different. Thank you also for your gracious invite for a game some time which I look forward to.

Re your comment to Jon about prices for local courses going up on the back of Castle Stuart. That is possible but fortunately or unfortunately depending on your point of view, I don't see that happening. I'm not sure that CS will provide a big enough spin off for the other courses in the area other than a select few. For instance the closest courses to CS are probably (haven't checked) the two Nairn courses. The main Nairn course is well enough known through reputation and hosting the Walker Cup that it gets a lot of visitors anyway and therefore is already charging a premium price. Nairn Dunbar by all accounts isn't as fgood but still a worthwhile track. Unfortunately few visitors stay to play worthwhile tracks. They play the "big course" and then move on to the next "big course" so don't see much change there.

Bear in mind also that most of these courses are members courses where the vast bulk of their income comes from members subs. They are also managed by Committees with revolving memberships therefore visitor fee increases tend to be the usual in line with inflation type increases every few years.

Niall 

[David_Tepper]

While this thread never quite reached the sublime, it is clearly veering towards the ridiculous.

As I have mentioned several times before (and is clearly stated on their website)  Castle Stuart was created to be a destination golf resort, along the lines of Turnberry and Gleneagles. It is not intended to be a "local" course. Comparing it to a local course is pointless.

That being said, the management at Castle Stuart is considerate enough to offer locals in the Highlands area access to the course at a green fee which is roughly 40% less than what a local would pay at courses in the Highlands area of equal quality. What does it cost for a local to play Turnberry or Gleneagles?      

As far as what is and is not a "Scottish" course, is it not a fact the Turnberry and Gleneagles (and Cruden Bay) were among the very first destination golf resorts? Is it not a fact that the very notion of golf resorts originated in Scotland? Can anyone deny those courses are not "Scottish?"

As for the notion that those resorts were created for the "home" market and Castle Stuart is designed for the international market, that is utter nonsense. At the time resorts like Turnberry & Gleneagles were built, there simply was no international market for golf travel. The market has simply grown larger over time.

Finally, can we put this notion that golf should not be viewed from a business perspective to rest and especially the notion that the Scots don't view it in that way? If that truly was the case, why is there a "Golf Hotel" overlooking dozens of golf courses in Scotland?
Is that not a manifestation of golf as a business? Did Donald Ross, Alistair Mackenzie, Willie Watson, Willie Park, Tommy Armour, et al. come to America as an act of charity, to spread the holy word? No! They came to make a few bucks and we should be (and are) grateful they did.        

Let's put an end to the hypocrisy!

P.S. None of this or most of the recent posts address just how good the course is. The consensus (of those who have played it!) think the course is very, very good and possibly even better than that!   

[Melvyn Morrow]

David has spoken, no other opinion matters, David the pretender to the crown of The Oracle at Delphi.

For all the time you profess to spend in Scotland you certainly have not understood much, but then clearly you have been in higher circles than the rest of us poor Scottish peasants.  Oh yes thanks for getting your management friends at CS to offer the locals a morsel or two towards the Green Fees.

My friend you have missed the point CS was produced for you and to make money, most of the other clubs around came into being because the locals loved the game and wanted their own course.

Because you and some of your friends play Dornoch and CS, does not make them great course, certainly not in the eyes of the home team.

David, your opinion is just that, your knowledge of our country and courses are also questionable, but you have a right to your opinion, but then so do we. CS is not a normal course that the average Scot would use or play on, it’s not all to their taste because they know what a golf course is and they can distinguish between a money making project and a course for the Scots.

The secret of Scotland Golfing is the way we formed our clubs, open to all like The Open. That’s why some of our designers kept their fees low so all could participate.

Melvyn

 PS David, Keep your hypocrisy on your side of the pond

[David_Tepper]

Melvyn -

I never said CS was a "normal" course! My last post said it specifically was not nor was it intended to be. By the way, how is that in any way relevant to the quality and design of CS?

Are the courses at Turnberry & Gleneagles so-called "normal" courses? How do you view those courses? Do they have a legitimate place in the universe of golf in Scotland? Should we not view CS in the same manner we view those courses?

They are very simple questions. Why don't you try answering one of two of them?
 
And by the way, speaking of hypocrisy, the next time you make a comment about golf in America, please remind us how many golf courses you have played (or even seen!) in America!
DT
 

[Melvyn Morrow]

David

Gleneagles was a copy of Cruden Bay but a quarter of a century later. It too was designed to catch the Home Market and built by the railways. I know Gleneagles well as it was the Families gathering point from between the wars just after it opened. My first experience of the place was mid 1950’s. The swimming pool was as I recall was a small sub basement affair. It was one of the two Five Star Hotels in GB owned at the time and run by the then British Rail. We stopped going around the early 1970’s when its became one of the fashionable places to be seen to play golf with likes of Sean Connery, Jimmy Tarbuck and many, many others. The secret was out and it lost much of its original charm IMHO. It nevertheless served the local community stretching out as far as St Andrews.

CS is what I imagine The Links Trust had hoped The Castle Course would be, but then again we have in these two courses the original intent to produce first a commercial venture not a Scottish Golf Club and course. The Castle was blatant raw commercialism, trading on the St Andrews name. Neither course was set up due to the interests of the local golfers, landowners and regional gentry. From the start they were money orientated but not from the locals but the international set. The success of CS is not reliant upon local participation but from the world at large.

Go to Strathpeffer Spa, Moray, Cullen or Luffness New and you will see our golf clubs serving the local community, there for the local golfer and visitor if he would like a round. These humble courses built with sympathy from Nature to the glory of the Royal and Ancient Game. They are not the Judas Iscariot modern courses built at the cost of millions to then in turn generate millions offering just about zero to the locals.

So David I have answered one of your questions. As for America I am more than happy to leave your game on your side of the pond.

Having said that I have a list of American courses that I trust one day I will be able to visit. It may surprise you that it includes a No Walking course as I want the experience.

Melvyn
     
PS  I trust you will enjoy other courses that you have not as yet played.

[David_Tepper]

Melvyn -

I am surprised you keep introducing the Castle course into a discussion about Castle Stuart, especially when the Castle course was conceived, funded and designed by Scots just about as "local" as can be! If nothing else, it might illustrate that foreigners know the international market better than the locals do!

Regarding Gleneagles, here is the current menu of green fee: http://www.gleneagles.com/golf/green-fees-and-caddies

It would appear that, whatever consideration may at one time have been shown to the locals at Gleneagles, is long gone.

DT   

[Colin Sheehan]

What people will find interesting, especially if the pros play there in the Scottish Open and then Sandwich the following week, is Castle Stuart has a far higher concentration of fescue than ANY links on the Open Rota. I'm guessing they are still 100% if not a very high percentage like 98% or 99%.

Just about everywhere else, the bents have essentially become an equal partner. So as much as some disparage CS, there probably isn't a "faster" playing surface on the fairways and greens anywhere in Scotland during the summer, assuming of course the rains have stayed away--and therefore closest to how links courses were maintained prior to the arrival of irrigation systems. This is one course without any "meadow" flavors to it.

There is currently a separate thread about sites that were nearly too difficult. It should be noted that CS is an especially windy site, just as--I know see--Barnbougle, Sand Hills and Bandon Dunes were considered possibly too windy. For those that think the course is way to wide, I can see their point on a few holes, but on a garden variety windy day (when it's "blowin' a hoolie") the width is more than appropriate. And for those who didn't seem to differentiate any advantage to being on one side or the other, I ask them if they made par from being down the right side on 14,versus coming in from the left? or how did they do coming at the 16th green from the left, versus coming from the right? Or play your third shot into the par-five sixth--into the wind from 120 yards!--from either side of the fairway....good luck. Yes, some of these things can't get solved immediately in a first pass.

So with the wind the summer, yellow-fescue fairways and greens, this course was built with restraint in regard to some contours around the greens. When the course is hot, even subtle contours become big issues.

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon,

You raise a good point with the visitor fee remaining the same for native Scots. I personally feel a 50 quid fee, with a limit of, perhaps three spins a year at that rate, if unaccompanied by a member, would be fair. You have to admit though, with the member guest fee at 20 quid or so, that is quite a bargain. It is a private, members club, so that considered, I believe they feel that all visitors deserve the same, equal rate. Why should the traveling golfer be gouged? I tend to agree, but respect that fee might be steep for some Scots.

Cheers

Chris,

does not your last point contradict your bemoaning the non local driving prices out of reach of the locals? Although I understand the argument that club are able to charge what they want on the other hand I believe that this should be tempered with a certain moral consideration. Yes, many of the big clubs have been able to charge the non local visitor more than many locals can afford band this works as long as there are enough outside visitors. The last 12 months has however shown a drop in this category. Yes, clubs may drop their prices but I think many that local players will see it as them only being wanted when the times are bad.

Melvyn,

I would suggest that CS is supporting the local golfer with their postcode green fee rate. I would also point out that there are courses being built for the locals.

Jon

[Kris Shreiner]

David,

I appreciated your IM. Sorry for any misunderstanding.


Niall,

Thanks and I look forward to our meeting!


Colin,

Thank you for an excellent, insider's look at what CS presents to the golfer, while explaining the thought process behind it. Your points make sound sense to me. The open nature of the site, when I saw it last, left me with the thought that strong winds could be a frequent guest as CS, and quite a challenge to the players!

Jon,

I tried to convey both sides of the dilemma, so hence the possible contradiction. Let's remember though, the 150 quid bar for a  visitor fee in the Highlands didn't come from any club. I also respect that costs to build CS need to be recovered from those that play the course. It just changes the dynamic up there. I believe CS is an excellent golf course of fine quality. Many others feel the same way and will pay the visitor fee to play it.

It's just simple economics for RD, who feel they also provide a superb golfing presentation and atmosphere, to raise their price(now less than half) for what they surely believe is a equally valued experience. I've already seen it happen through the years; other regional courses have raised their fees in relation to RD's fee changes. Again, no surprise there, just market adjustments in relation to what the other competitive products are fetching from the visitor. If you'll notice Dornoch hasn't lowered any fee. I don't believe they will either, and when held up against some of most extortionate offerings of others, particularlty the Open rota tracks, is a deal!
 
Finally, with the many open events, guest events, Carnegie Shield competition and the like, most local Scots have ample oportunities, to ejoy RD for far less than the standard visitor tarrif, at some point. That is why, I suppose, they have the visitor fee policy they do, applicable to all. It's a special place and every golfer deserves to sample it at least once.

Cheers,
Kris

[Jon Wiggett]

Kris,

I appreciate your putting both sides of the case. It is something that is all to rarely done with people being stuck in polarized positions refusing to accept anything but their own POV is valid.

I am not a great fan of the 'market driving the price' idea. After all it is why we are in the situation we are. I believe business has an obligation to look at the moral issues when pricing products and this is something that local businesses have to do or else face a backlash. Golf clubs are especially effected by this now when there are so much fewer visitors from oversees. Maybe this is why RD has reduced its rates, if only slightly this year.

Jon

[Niall C]

What people will find interesting, especially if the pros play there in the Scottish Open and then Sandwich the following week, is Castle Stuart has a far higher concentration of fescue than ANY links on the Open Rota. I'm guessing they are still 100% if not a very high percentage like 98% or 99%.

Just about everywhere else, the bents have essentially become an equal partner. So as much as some disparage CS, there probably isn't a "faster" playing surface on the fairways and greens anywhere in Scotland during the summer, assuming of course the rains have stayed away--and therefore closest to how links courses were maintained prior to the arrival of irrigation systems. This is one course without any "meadow" flavors to it.

There is currently a separate thread about sites that were nearly too difficult. It should be noted that CS is an especially windy site, just as--I know see--Barnbougle, Sand Hills and Bandon Dunes were considered possibly too windy. For those that think the course is way to wide, I can see their point on a few holes, but on a garden variety windy day (when it's "blowin' a hoolie") the width is more than appropriate. And for those who didn't seem to differentiate any advantage to being on one side or the other, I ask them if they made par from being down the right side on 14,versus coming in from the left? or how did they do coming at the 16th green from the left, versus coming from the right? Or play your third shot into the par-five sixth--into the wind from 120 yards!--from either side of the fairway....good luck. Yes, some of these things can't get solved immediately in a first pass.

So with the wind the summer, yellow-fescue fairways and greens, this course was built with restraint in regard to some contours around the greens. When the course is hot, even subtle contours become big issues.

Colin,

Interesting stuff and good to get down to specifics. On the question of fescue, I posted on another thread on CS a while back asking about whether the pure fescue mean't that there wasn't as much borrow as the ball rolled. I'm not a GCA or greenkeeper so generally ignorant on grasses but it did seem to me that while the going was firm there wasn't as much borrow in putts and indeed when the ball was running on the fairway than you would get on other links courses. That was commented on as well by my playing partners. Was that down to the length of the grass at that time or does the bent mix make it "slicker" and therefore more likely for the ball to take a borrow ?

With regard to width and approach angles, I agree that it would be a gross exageration to say that all the holes are excessively wide or that in none of them was there a need to come in from the right angle. That said, the example you give of the 16th, the pin position would need to be far left and front and the drive landing hard left on the fairway to give the challenging approach you claim. Anything middle or right of the fairway and the approach is fairly simple irrespective of pin position IMHO. However its likely we will see with the Scottish Open.

Niall