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Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: high praise from Whitten re Castle Stuart
« Reply #50 on: November 25, 2010, 02:24:30 AM »
David,

Are we reading selectively?  My reflections addressed a wide spectrum of subject matter regarding the course. Where in my post did any personal questioning of those involved with the CS project arise? Where in his post did he indicate you were making any personal questioning of those involved? If you bothered to FULLY read my post, you would not make such poor comments. Why are you making such poor baseless comments?

Why do some on this site try to turn candid queries into personal attacks. Why are you so paranoid as to see a personal attack in such a benign post? A post that even included the ubiquitous smiley! I could easily rip you sir. What possible motivation could you have for ripping DT? You know nothing about me or my rather deep connection to the region. In what way did he even implicate he was posting contrary to anything personal about you or your connection to the region? I don't expect you to, but your defensive remarks don't answer one question I posed, now do they. What kind of perverted outlook on life do you have that you attribute defensiveness to his remarks? Funny, coming from someone calling me out on a non-architecture bent. I love the region. What possible logical connection do those last two sentences have? So do you, from all you state. Where should we differ from what I've written?

Cheers  8)



All,
Please pardon some choppy text and a typo or two, it did not tranfer to the post as it appeared on my proof-read post.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2010, 02:26:38 AM by Gambers Baysound »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: high praise from Whitten re Castle Stuart
« Reply #51 on: November 25, 2010, 03:46:36 AM »
Gambers,

You must be joking. Quite a a rambling retort of yours. Did you not sleep well? I'm paranoid about not ONE IOTA concerning what I write on here.

The entire tenor of David's respose was to counter, without discussing any part, of my asking for responses, from those that might know the answers, to simple questions.  Where is your answer to anything I inquired about? ZERO sir. Your attempts at being coy...fall flat!

As to the two sentences you cite as to where's the connection...READ the very next one again. Sorry, I didn't start a new paragraph for you.

EVERYONE using this site comments on matters not strictly devoted only to golf architecture.

Cheers 8)
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: high praise from Whitten re Castle Stuart
« Reply #52 on: November 25, 2010, 05:12:25 AM »
There have been all types of takes on CS so far, but I've not heard much on some of the the most important information. Roughly, how many full PAYING rounds has CS done since it opened. It's won every plaudit possible. Been anointed the second coming of the The Old by some. Has a Euro event in the forecast. Most of the talk I've heard spoke of light play. I know Royal Dornoch's numbers are down somewhat the last two years.

Kris,

I wasn't going to reply on this thread as it seems that some people take things very personally when talking about this course but well here goes.


Quite a bit went into the effort to create CS.  Of those that have played it, has anyone been out, besides a group event, where there were 50-60 players, or more on the course. Where the grill was busy, the place buzzing?

Last time I played in the summer there were quite a few groups on the course. I would have thought that the number must have been at least 50 players. I don't think highland clubhouses BUZZ.

Though the vastness off the tee may take away some intrigue, how interesting and effective were the approach options and green complexes? Did windy conditions allow the ball to be held, on the back of some of those infinity greens, when hit low or run in? Are the exposed greens, most near the sea, adapting well?

The vastness of the tee could be remedied by additional bunkering though I do not see it as a negative. It surprised me that so many people here moan about fairways been to narrow and attack somewhere that has wide fairways for their width. The greens appear to be coming in very well. I do not have an answer to your other questions.

Gil, Mark, Stuart and the strong supporting cast deserve high praise, for a creating a quality course that certainly presented challenges, of which the economic were unforeseen. The Euro event making its way up there concerns me. I certainly don't wish to see a return to the pillage and plunder mentality that was starting to take hold up there in the Inverness region, before this latest, tempering correction. When the global garbage parade finds something special, they usually waste no time in exploiting and destroying it. Witness Mr. Trump's multilation in progress.

Many view golf as a business first. That is what has gotten the game where it is...trouble! There's a right way to do it. Take a light-footprint, long-term view. A high-dollar, whore out of the Highlands certainly isn't the answer. The locals up there want new
opportunities, but not at the expense of their wonderful way of life. I hope all those involved, with future projects there, respect the hard won, timeless charm of that tremendous part of the planet. We'll all lose if the foolish get their way.

Cheers  8)

Kris, I was also surprised/dismayed at some of the green fee prices being asked by certain clubs in the highlands. I am not sure that CS is asking an over the top price for the locals at £50. I do find that the £80+ price tag for a round at RD is over the top however and maybe this is reflected in the downturn in green fees. I do not think many highlanders will pay that.

On two further points. You say you have a strong connection to the area, how? (PM if you want) I had the pleasure of playing a round at Golspie with David Tepper. You could not wish to meet a finer and more interesting playing partner. I am not sure that his post was intended to be read/interpreted in the way that you have. It would be nice if people could see the positive instead of the negative all the time


Richard Phinney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: high praise from Whitten re Castle Stuart
« Reply #53 on: November 25, 2010, 11:27:36 AM »
There have been all types of takes on CS so far, but I've not heard much on some of the the most important information. Roughly, how many full PAYING rounds has CS done since it opened. It's won every plaudit possible. Been anointed the second coming of the The Old by some. Has a Euro event in the forecast. Most of the talk I've heard spoke of light play. I know Royal Dornoch's numbers are down somewhat the last two years.

Quite a bit went into the effort to create CS.  Of those that have played it, has anyone been out, besides a group event, where there were 50-60 players, or more on the course. Where the grill was busy, the place buzzing?

Though the vastness off the tee may take away some intrigue, how interesting and effective were the approach options and green complexs? Did windy conditions allow the ball to be held, on the back of some of those infinity greens, when hit low or run in? Are the exposed greens, most near the sea, adapting well?


I was told there had been 14000 rounds there this year, but it was in passing, and I can't confirm the accuracy of that. The greens look great, no different close to the sea than further in. I think the green siting is terrific, and any issues regarding wind and the greens would be shared by Dornoch I suspect.  And I must say, the fish and chips with side salad in the clubhouse was the best I have had in my 10 years in the UK. As with almost every Scottish golf club, the beer was lousy.

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: high praise from Whitten re Castle Stuart
« Reply #54 on: November 25, 2010, 11:57:57 AM »
Jon,

Thank you for some fine insight and responses to my queries. I appreciate your take and concur that from all accounts, Dave is a class guy. So am I. When something is as highly touted as CS, it clearly deserves a full discussion.

I know, and have spent personal time, on several occasions, with some of the key folks involved with CS and have a high regard for them. My remarks were on the regional situatiion there in general. They were NOT singling out CS, withs its evolution as has been stated, as part of the problem. Mark and the rest of the team there, as they did at Kingsbarns before, try to be very inclusive and sensative to the impact their projects will have within the community. That said, I do, however, have serious concerns about the potential, negative impacts, of some big tournament coming into that area. Anyone who belives that nothing but good will come from it...is kidding themselves.

My wife is from Dornoch.  We're members there at RD. I know the region well. The sheer volume of what was transpiring in the Inverness region was not good for the area, long-term.  If one were about developing land and just making money...it was great times, bring it on. Locales, especially the young adults that area is desperate to keep, were being priced right out of thier communities. Few of the jobs that wonderful business growth you hear about, provided the higher-income jobs in any real numbers, to allow those folks to live and raise a family there. If you understand how fragile that area is, despite the harsh weather, you'd come to the conclusion so many others, who reach for reason beyond the immediate desire to fill their wallet, would deduce. Things need to be done with restraint.

I'll give you a glaring example. In Dornoch, a developer has been ramming ahead with trying to put an entensive housing project in on the lower part of town, in the low-land,  tidal-surge and flood prone meadow areas. Absolutley the wrong place to build, pure and simple. That lovely bucolic ride in off the A-9, so particular to the aura there, would also be severly compromised . I'm not some anti-development loony, I just belive that existing land can always be re-developed as the first option. Some ground just needs to be left alone, to function properly, as it has for centuries and beyond.

I believe clubhouses do buzz (have significant activity) in Scotland, just not in the boisterous way they might in America. Perhaps the term, as I stated it, registered differently with you. I've spent many a day at Royal Dornoch and other clubhouses in Scotland where the atmosphere was "merry" to say the least. With no fellow Yanks of any significant numbers about.

Again Jon, thank you for your thoughtful post.

To others that I may have excited unduly, that was not my original intent. I was looking for answers to questions I had, nothing more.

Cheers,
Kris 8)

"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: high praise from Whitten re Castle Stuart
« Reply #55 on: November 25, 2010, 12:06:12 PM »
Richard,

Thank you sir, for your take. That annual round figure seems high. I hope it is accurate, I'm sure the Castle Stuart folks would be delighted with that figure.

I'm sorry the beer wasn't better. What was it that put you off?

Cheers,
Kris 8)
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: high praise from Whitten re Castle Stuart
« Reply #56 on: November 25, 2010, 01:21:10 PM »
Jon,

Thank you for some fine insight and responses to my queries. I appreciate your take and concur that from all accounts, Dave is a class guy. So am I. When something is as highly touted as CS, it clearly deserves a full discussion.

I know, and have spent personal time, on several occasions, with some of the key folks involved with CS and have a high regard for them. My remarks were on the regional situatiion there in general. They were NOT singling out CS, withs its evolution as has been stated, as part of the problem. Mark and the rest of the team there, as they did at Kingsbarns before, try to be very inclusive and sensative to the impact their projects will have within the community. That said, I do, however, have serious concerns about the potential, negative impacts, of some big tournament coming into that area. Anyone who belives that nothing but good will come from it...is kidding themselves.

My wife is from Dornoch.  We're members there at RD. I know the region well. The sheer volume of what was transpiring in the Inverness region was not good for the area, long-term.  If one were about developing land and just making money...it was great times, bring it on. Locales, especially the young adults that area is desperate to keep, were being priced right out of thier communities. Few of the jobs that wonderful business growth you hear about, provided the higher-income jobs in any real numbers, to allow those folks to live and raise a family there. If you understand how fragile that area is, despite the harsh weather, you'd come to the conclusion so many others, who reach for reason beyond the immediate desire to fill their wallet, would deduce. Things need to be done with restraint.

I'll give you a glaring example. In Dornoch, a developer has been ramming ahead with trying to put an entensive housing project in on the lower part of town, in the low-land,  tidal-surge and flood prone meadow areas. Absolutley the wrong place to build, pure and simple. That lovely bucolic ride in off the A-9, so particular to the aura there, would also be severly compromised . I'm not some anti-development loony, I just belive that existing land can always be re-developed as the first option. Some ground just needs to be left alone, to function properly, as it has for centuries and beyond.

I believe clubhouses do buzz (have significant activity) in Scotland, just not in the boisterous way they might in America. Perhaps the term, as I stated it, registered differently with you. I've spent many a day at Royal Dornoch and other clubhouses in Scotland where the atmosphere was "merry" to say the least. With no fellow Yanks of any significant numbers about.

Again Jon, thank you for your thoughtful post.

To others that I may have excited unduly, that was not my original intent. I was looking for answers to questions I had, nothing more.

Cheers,
Kris 8)



Kris

I'm in the property business and currently working in Moray not far from the Inverness area. The main property developers in this area, and that includes the Highland Council area, are pretty well all local born and bred and would probably take great exception to an outsider telling them whats good for their own area. Especially where they are at the forefront of providing jobs and housing for locals as well as regenerating town centres.

I would also add that DT is the biggest supporter on this site of Castle Stuart and the team behind it. I'm sure if you met him you would concur with anyone who has that he's an absolute gentleman. Hopefully with your Dornoch connections you'll find that out for yourself soon enough.

Niall

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: high praise from Whitten re Castle Stuart
« Reply #57 on: November 25, 2010, 02:15:58 PM »
Naill,

You guys are hilarious. Did you even read my first sentence? Then why do you need to browbeat me on what a fine guy David is.

So David is a huge supporter of CS, what is surprising about that? I'm a TITANIC supporter of Scotland and the entire Highlands, as anyone who knows me will attest. So what?

As far as ousiders having a take or say, hate to break it to you, they've been coming, saying and doing plenty since before the Vikings.  How many English jetters have piled in there within the last ten years, driving the area home prices to extortionate levels?
 
No problem with those outsiders, so long as they were filling pockets. Dornoch has had plenty of my fellow Yanks acquire second homes and the like,which has put tremendous pressure on the housing market prices there for locals until this latest economic downturn.

My wife was born there, lived there most of her adult life, and been very saddened and disturbed by what see shes when we come over for extended stays. I've spent significant time in the Highlands and have plenty of local friends there who also have NO INTEREST in much of the lauded "development" they had, until recently, been subject to at record levels.

I get it, you and others in the business want to cash in whenever possible. I've been in the construction business as a contractor for 20 years. I've walked from projects I felt were wrong, even though it cost me a lot of money. A gotta do what I gotta do mentality is unsustainable and leads to the overheated collapses we are all currently enjoying. Are you liking the taste of it?  I don't know, and won't pass judgement on you, or your approach to development.

I do know what I've seen unfold in that region, with my own two eyes, firsthand, and from my wife's family, who were born and  have lived there in the Highlands for over 50 years. Things are not good up there at all. Severe cuts are on the horizen. I'm hoping things get better and want only the best for the region. It don't wish to see it destroyed by another avalanche of outside plundering in the name of progress. That is my concern. 

The Clearances were bad enough, but at least that didn't totally destroy the land. What might come next could. Let's close this matter a return to golf and discussion of the game, shall we.

Cheers 8)
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: high praise from Whitten re Castle Stuart
« Reply #58 on: November 25, 2010, 02:48:07 PM »
Kris

Firstly you may wish to pay me the courtesy of spelling my name right.

With regards to my comments on DT, I was responding to your first post to DT where you rounded on him for some fairly innocuous comment regarding one of your posts. Apologies I didn't make that clear in my post.

As for the rest of your post, I'm not really sure what points you're trying to make, is it development is good or development is bad, CS is bad or CS is good ? I also tend to think the locals may take even more exception to your comment about the Clearances than about being told what kind of development is good or bad. To compare property development to people being disposed of their homes and thrown off the land suggests you may want to brush up on your history a wee bit or maybe gain a bit more perspective.

Niall

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: high praise from Whitten re Castle Stuart
« Reply #59 on: November 25, 2010, 05:56:58 PM »
Kris,

I am not sure I share your opinion about where the Highlands has gone in the last few years though much has changed. I would be interested in your opinion about the prices of the green fees at RD from a members point of view. You are correct about the second home problem pushing prices up and this is something that needs dealing with though a restriction/ban ala Switzerland would not be the right way forward.

Wether we like it or not Scotland and especially the Highlands is very dependant on the tourist industry but luckily the Highlanders are the perfect people as hosts :) In order to understand the british mentality I would advise you to watch lots of Monty Python :) so as to appreciate Scottish clubhouses. We are often very merry but I don't think we buzz up here. Oh by the way, the Titanic sank ;)

Jon

kconway

Re: high praise from Whitten re Castle Stuart
« Reply #60 on: November 25, 2010, 06:30:39 PM »
Melvin,

What would you consider the courses of true Scottish character?


Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: high praise from Whitten re Castle Stuart
« Reply #61 on: November 25, 2010, 07:45:04 PM »
Not that it matters but I was talking with a club pro the other day who just returned from a trip with members and a well known architect.

They played Castle Stuart, Dornoch, TOC, Kingsbarn, Castle course, Machrihanish and Machrihanaish Dunes.  They all except for the architect seemed to like Castle Stuart the best and this club pro thought it was the best course he had ever played.

Regardless of pointless ratings if appears Castle Stuart is world class and one of the better courses built in the last 10 years.  I know Gil is very pleased and he deserves all of the accolades.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: high praise from Whitten re Castle Stuart
« Reply #62 on: November 25, 2010, 08:32:09 PM »

Joel

It may be to your taste and I agree it is directed to the international scene, but many here do not want our courses to be international or what others these days seem to consider is Scottish.

If you are building a course in Scotland I cannot see why we are not given the courtesy of a course for the Scots. You want international, fine what many of us see is just another venture trading on our golfing traditions, excuse us if we are not that happy.

Although it was two centuries ago we are still very much aware of The Highland Clearances and there are times when we are not keen to be pushed aside for money making schemes.

Having said that I am please you enjoyed our experience.

Melvyn   


Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: high praise from Whitten re Castle Stuart
« Reply #63 on: November 25, 2010, 08:37:47 PM »
Pushed aside for money-making schemes?

Not given the courtesy of a course for Scots?

I don't understand either of those claims.

I'm starting to think some people just want to bash the new boy because he is the new boy.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: high praise from Whitten re Castle Stuart
« Reply #64 on: November 25, 2010, 08:53:15 PM »

Me thinks you lived in our islands for two years and learn sweet FA

Melvyn

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: high praise from Whitten re Castle Stuart
« Reply #65 on: November 25, 2010, 08:57:30 PM »
Please try to stick to the topic, Melvyn. Could you explain what those two comments meant?

Locals can play Castle Stuart for 50 quid and any resident of Scotland can play it for 90 quid a round or 140 quid a day. For a course of the quality that we keep hearing this is, that is tremendous value. What more do you want in "a course for Scots"?

Who was pished aside for this "money-making scheme"?

Melvyn Morrow

Re: high praise from Whitten re Castle Stuart
« Reply #66 on: November 25, 2010, 09:01:48 PM »

Let me repeat myself as you seem to have missed my point  - 

“Me thinks you lived in our islands for two years and learn sweet FA”

Melvyn

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: high praise from Whitten re Castle Stuart
« Reply #67 on: November 26, 2010, 01:03:31 AM »
Niall,

Please accept my apology for mixing the vowels in your name. As I hit the post button, it caught my eye...my bad.
To take the advice of our fearless, astute site-host Ran, once we've responded to a post once or twice, to share insights or express differences, not much more can be gained and I certainly don't wish to waste more of your, or my, valuable time. We can simply move on.

I've always felt most folks on here are class acts. I certainly include you, David and others in that mix and have enjoyed reading your posts. I may, if something really stokes my coals, use strong language to convey my view. Some get riled up. There's no sin in that.
But when people chime in and don't even address the questions; well, let's just say there is liitle contribution being made there. I may comment on what someone has said, but it usually is addressed within the context of what is being asked. Nuff Said.

I have no problem with "responsible" development of any kind. Castle Stuart, which I saw during the early days of construction in 2007, had all the ingredients to be a superb track. I believe they delivered, though I've yet to play it. Let me say, so there is no confusion, the CS team are caliber guys that really try to get it right. I know that what they presented to me, of their plans at that time, had respect for the region and the community, front and center.

In fact, some on the CS team created Kingsbarns, which to date, in the excellent presentaion I enjoyed in 2001, was the best newer golf course I've played. That alone, should confirm my respect for the effort and craft those folks commit to a project.

This tour event, if it comes, will have significant impacts, long-term, on the region. Life sure as hell won't get cheaper for the locals.

I would greatly enjoy hosting you, David and others at RD, when my wife and I are over next. David is quite fond of Golspie and I've never played it. I couldn't imagine a much better way to play that course than with someone who enjoys the place as much as he does. Brora is an absolute cracker of "jolly golf." I love the place and believe you may as well.

A gentle reminder Niall, I'm very sensitive to the Scottish Clearances, regarding their history. Unfortunately, Mr. Trump has threatened the very"compulsory...whatever" you reference. Essentially, having the remaining landowners forced off their land, with some remuneration of course. How civil.
So you can plainly see, it's not that much of a potential difference, just absent the brutality. If it is permitted there, where will it stop. Remember, some of this land was the most "protected" SSI ground in Scotland. It didn't matter did it? Donald got his way...what's next?


Jon,

I may have been aboard that Titanic in another life! ;D Sometimes, I think we all can feel that way. Tourism is the lifeblood of the Highlands. That will continue to be the magnificant mecca it is, only if its beauty and fragile ecosystems are preserved. Big money hasn't totally forced its way in to alter the landscape...yet, which if allowed, will ruin that area.

What's to come, tacky strip malls and the cookie cutter food chains slammed in right next to the Tesco's. Subdivisions dotting the hillsides and lower meadows. Come on, that's EXACTLY what will happen. And those that opened the floodgates, together with all of us, should hang our heads in shame. Look at the world's special places...they keep all that crap well away.

To your question of RD's green fees. First, it is a matter for the club to decide. I have no input, am on no committee and feel they, the club, have done, in the main, a superb job on their pricing of fees. These thoughts, and those that follow, are strictly my personal views. The fee structures across Scotland, indeed, across the world, just went kooky in that 2005-08 window. Overseas clubs saw the extortionate fees being charged in the U.S., had plenty of Yanks and Europeans, conditioned somewhat to paying heavy fees, that were visiting, and went for it.

The Northern Highlands, in the past, always seemed to be the best value region, for quality, in Scotland. RD generally was at the higher end on that scale, and the presentation, save a brief period of "Americanitis" that saw grossly overfertilized and soft conditions, delivered a superb experience, that their fee reflected. I can tell you, our annual member fees certainly always got a bump up each year, and we were taking in plenty of money during many of those years. To be fair, it was generally a modest boost, so few complained.

When the economy tanked, RD were on 80 quid, or so, I believe, for visitor weekday play. I don't think that's moved in at least a year, maybe two. When you compare that to what other top-tier Scottish tracks are charging, that's a steal. I'll refrain from calling out the real criminals, but some quick homework will confirm the value of RD. That OPEN rota surcharge is really special.

Now, when Castle Stuart entered the fray, and opened with 150 quid fees, that was a bit of a shock. I know their model, with associated land/development costs etc. is different. But to charge nearly double, what RD's  visitor fee is...wow. To their credit, they have given the Scots considerable discounted rates.

The problem is, it's almost impossible to prevent an upward, drafting effect, being the net result of such a quantum leap at the top, in visitor pricing for that region. Other courses and clubs in the area will feel justified in upping theirs to keep pace with the new bar. There isn't a course on the planet twice as good as Dornoch, or worth twice the fee, though some get it. That's no knock on Castle Stuart, or anywhere else, RD is just that good in my view. I felt that way the first time I played it; nothing I've played since has changed my mind.

See, in the end, that is the danger of constantly escalating the costs, to do damn near anything, in an area. It becomes unaffordable, even though it is unsustainable, for those less-monied to live there long-term. That end game will be a disaster for the North Highlands...as it is, and has been, virtually anywhere else in the world that scenario develops. It is rife in America and many other places. I fear the lessons are being ignored by many. Let's hope things get better. I'm an optimist by nature, though tempered by reality. 

Cheers 8)
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: high praise from Whitten re Castle Stuart
« Reply #68 on: November 26, 2010, 06:47:32 AM »
Kris,

lets hope the mistake of out pricing the locals is not repeated in the Highlands. I would point out that CS has a local rate of £50 but am not aware of RD having such a rate. GF's at RD will be £80 for a round and £130 for the day in 2011 weekdays which, though cheaper than this year on the round fee is still quite steep for the locals IMO.

I am sure in your previous life you were looking at the flanks of the iceberg trying to imagine how to route a golf hole around its flanks even as the icy waters lapped at your feet ;)

Jon

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: high praise from Whitten re Castle Stuart
« Reply #69 on: November 26, 2010, 06:53:04 AM »
Pushed aside for money-making schemes?

Not given the courtesy of a course for Scots?


Melvyn,

I understand your first point but like Scott Warren am perplexed at what you mean by the second.

As to the Trump clearances, then you need to vent your anger in the direction of the Scottish Executive and SNP in particular for making this scenario possible.

Jon

Melvyn Morrow

Re: high praise from Whitten re Castle Stuart
« Reply #70 on: November 26, 2010, 07:24:19 AM »

Jon

Happy to explain to you.

These new courses are aimed not at Us, the Scots or the local villages or towns but at the international visitors who arrive in their tens of thousands each year. They are only built or sited in Scotland for this very purpose, so IMHO they are just simple money making schemed not set up for the Home Market.

Why can’t the new courses be built for the Home market, to persuade the locals to participate, to join or at least have cheap access to the course all year round. £30 - £50 per round is expensive for many locals.

Royal Dornoch is a club I no longer bother with as it has set its sights on the Dollar market. They are a private club and that’s their right, but round times have slowed over the last 10 years reflecting the current state of international golf.

As for Trump, I care not for the guy or his sons, but tell me is he building the ‘best Course in the World’ for the locals or for financial benefit from an international market?

I am not the only one that cares nor is it just us Scots, many have mirrored my concerns from Canada, The USA and from the upside down guys down under. These are golfers who observe not just the courses, GCA but also the locals.

Melvyn 

Mark Pearce

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Re: high praise from Whitten re Castle Stuart
« Reply #71 on: November 26, 2010, 09:01:01 AM »
Melvyn,

Wasn't Cruden Bay built for tourists?

Mark
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: high praise from Whitten re Castle Stuart
« Reply #72 on: November 26, 2010, 09:48:00 AM »

Mark,

Wasn’t the world a different place 111 years on yet golf is still a Walking and Thinking Game for some of us. Also the course was designed to play Scottish golf, the real game of golf for the HOME market in mind.

Clearly you have not been watching Making Scotland’s Landscape exploring the effects mankind had on the landscape of the Highlands By Prof. Iain Stewart  (BBC 2 Sunday Evening 8PM)

Melvyn


Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: high praise from Whitten re Castle Stuart
« Reply #73 on: November 26, 2010, 10:00:00 AM »
Jon,

You raise a good point with the visitor fee remaining the same for native Scots. I personally feel a 50 quid fee, with a limit of, perhaps three spins a year at that rate, if unaccompanied by a member, would be fair. You have to admit though, with the member guest fee at 20 quid or so, that is quite a bargain. It is a private, members club, so that considered, I believe they feel that all visitors deserve the same, equal rate. Why should the traveling golfer be gouged? I tend to agree, but respect that fee might be steep for some Scots.

Cheers 8)
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Stan Dodd

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: high praise from Whitten re Castle Stuart
« Reply #74 on: November 26, 2010, 12:44:49 PM »
Dornoch does have reciprocal rates for members of other area clubs that can be used outwith the high season, July and August.   The club and seniors sections have a full slate of matches with other area clubs that provides access for the cost of a meal.

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