Slope OR Contour, how did THE Donald decide

[Patrick_Mucci]

Which configuration best suited each locale ?

Seminole and Mountain Ridge were both designed by THE Donald, Donald Ross in 1929, yet both present significantly differen tapproaches to green configurations.

Seminole is virtually void of any substantive contour in the greens.  Instead, Ross relied on slope to preseent his challenge at the greens.
The combination of angular orientation coupled with slope makes for a brilliant and challenging presentation, without the slightest hint of substantive contouring.

On the other hand, Mountain Ridge has some of the most wildly contoured greens you could imagine.

One can't attribute the difference in the greens at the two courses to an evolving style as both were crafted in the same year.

 The sites, other than the soils and climate aren't that dissimilar with a high ridge being the landmark feature at both courses, with the balance of the golf course lying on the flat section of the property.  Both properties enjoy a good breeze, although Seminole's is more pronounced.

So what would cause THE Donald to craft two courses in the same year with such a diverse design approach to the greens ?

What were the configurations of the greens on the  other courses he designed in 1928, 1929 and 1930 ?

Do they reflect a pattern, or do they represent diverse design configurations ?

[Mike_Young]

Probably just went with whatever he had on his mind at the time. 
But I do think that the sand ridge of Florida was probably much more difficult to place contours and keep them from moving than it would be in a higher soil content medium....The winds during a grow-in and the weight of the mowers on sand as the course was grown could have been a factor....just speculating...

[Jaeger Kovich]

Since I obviously haven't played both of those courses

I very much prefer to play greens with the contour of a Pinehurst, and the little I've walked around Mountain Ridge v. the steep tiers of a Montclair.

However I find the steep tiers to be much more difficult to putt on and read.. So both have equally valid architectural merit in my opinion. There's just more than one way to skin a cat!

[Kris Shreiner]

Pat,

Having not played Seminole, I can't speak from first hand visuals, although I've seen a fair few photos on here and others places. As to what influenced his respective approach to green design on each, I think your comment on stronger, consistent winds would be a good starting point. The soil profile would almost certainly have been more sand-based at the Nole as well.

Perhaps, with more pronounced variety of elevation on the greens, the crowned or higher parts would have dried out faster in the intense Florida heat, particularly in summer, if afternoon thundershowers were absent. Ross, with his greenkeeper background, probably didn't want to kill the superintendent and his crew either. Pretty much hand-watering back then. Doubt there were any automated sprinkler systems then as well.

As to other period, Ross-designed courses to draw comparisons, that is a subject for more research. Did he build any other seaside courses around that time? I'll see what I can dig up when I have some time.

Happy Thanksgiving and kudos again for that great Muccifest this Fall!

 

[Andy Levett]

I haven't got a clue, though I do think this is the sort of question we should be discussing.
Slope is natural, contour is imposed.
Slope is TOC, contour is NGLA

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kris,

I thinik those are good points, but, I have to believe that THE Donald knew how to drain those greens especially since everyone of them is elevated.

Don't forget, in 1929 none of them were stimping at 9, 10 or higher.

[Rick Shefchik]

The Ross course I'm most familiar with, Northland CC in Duluth, Minn., was opened in 1927, and features some of the flattest greens imaginable. He relied almost solely on slope to create interest and difficulty, with the exception of #3 green, which is two-tiered, but perfectly flat on both the upper and lower tiers. Some of the best putts I've hit in my life were from the upper tier to the lower tier of that green that managed not to roll off the green and go 30 yards back down the fairway.

Perhaps Ross simply had a genius for looking at a site and determining which characteristic would work better for that particular site. Northland is built on the side of a steep hill above Lake Superior, and given half a chance, balls want to roll toward the lake until they find some reason to stop. Adding contour to the greens would have been gilding the lily. Northland's greens are more fun that a golfer should be permitted to have, and confounding to almost anyone who hasn't played them before. They haven't been changed in the 50 years I've been playing them. Ross knew exactly what he was doing.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I haven't got a clue, though I do think this is the sort of question we should be discussing.
Slope is natural, contour is imposed.
Slope is TOC, contour is NGLA

Andy,

Most of NGLA's greens are sloped, not contoured.

Perhaps 4 - 5 greens could be considered contoured, with the rest flat or sloped.

Obviously, THE Donald was proficient at designing both, so what made him decide on sloped versus contoured ?

What greens influenced his work ?

[Kris Spence]

Patrick, I'm looking at the routing plan for Seminole as I write this and it is evident that Ross designed and or intended to implement  contoured greens.  The holes on the second dune line  have the most similarities to the design drawing but they too differ.  However, the holes down in the lower terrain are vastly different than what is on the drawing.  Many of the greens were to have protruded hole locations, multiple plateaus, tiers, spines, ridges, flashed edges, swales etc like many of the Ross greens I see around the country.  I haven't seen the greens at Mountain Ridge so I cant compare the two courses, probably the wildest set of Ross greens Ive seen are at Rolling Rock in PA.  I've always felt that Seminole would be a much more interesting course day in and day out with the greens on the drawing.  The shapes and sizes of the greens shown on the drawing with the strategic hole locations tucked away in the corners and around the spines and plateaus would bring much more variety to the course in my opinion.   With that being said, the transitions between the contoured features would have to be much more subtle compared to the original Ross greens in order to continue with the current greens maintenance that is implemented today.  It makes for a great debate, would Seminole be better with more of the original design contours at  slower green speeds or is it a better course as it plays today?  Either way, I absolutely love the course, it is one of the most enjoyable golf experiences I have known.

[Mike_Trenham]

What I have always wondered about is how much depended on who the construction foreman was on each course and if the real students of his courses can identify tell tale signs of Hatch, McGovern, Maples etc.

Second question for this would be also how much time did Ross himself spend on site at both of these courses, 1926 was a very busy time for his office.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kris,

When I have the time I'll pull out my copies of the field drawings of Seminole's greens.

With their size, I'm not so sure that they couldn't accomodate more pronounced contouring.

Mike,

I think that's a very interesting point.

One only has to look at the field drawings for Aronomink and compare them to the "as built" to see the contrast/conflict between drawing board design and field construction.

As to the time spent on site, that may or may not have influenced the outcome.
Again, I think it might be more dependent upon who the construction manager was and how he interfaced with THE Donald on those issues.

Pursuing the "styles' or penchants of the construction foreman would seem to be an enlightening exercise.

Was there a pattern or style each of those men prefered ?

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Could it be that, depending on the second shot or approach, the green was tilt or contoured to improve the visibility of the greens surface?

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Ross pretty much just used slope, not contour, with his greens at Gulf Stream which is about 25 miles south of Seminole and pretty much the same era. It has a single natural ridge line on the property which basically runs up and down the north to south routing but is not quite as prominent as the western ridge of Seminole.

[Carl Nichols]

Are both sets of greens at the two courses basically identical to how they were built in 1929? 

[TEPaul]

Carl:

No, not all of them. But most of them are. The exceptions are frankly pretty interesting how they were changed, why and by whom. Perhaps the most interesting of all of the altered greens is Gulf Stream's #15, a hole and green that Ross liked so much he specifically mentioned it in his book (the long lost manuscript---"Golf Has Never Failed Me").

I must say, Ross's original green on Gulf Stream's #15 really was an interesting conception in its shape and orientation to the fairway. I don't know that I have ever seen one like it with the possible exception of Flynn's 4th at Lancaster.