[JC Jones]

John,

Interesting theory, except that I only shaped a small handful of the greens at Quail Crossing.  Jim Urbina shaped most of them, and Bruce Hepner did a couple, if I recall correctly.  The ones I remember working on myself are 12, 15 and 16.

The main difference between Quail Crossing and my other work is that Quail Crossing was built in heavy clay.  It took me several tries (and a lot more help) to do really good work in that milieu.

 

Tom,

Did anything significant happen to you between Quail Crossing and Pacific Dunes that affected your architectural abilities?

[John Kavanaugh]

Socrates was a douche.

[TEPaul]

"I met two of Gil's young guys at Friars Head.  Bright eyes and clear intent.  We need more of that."


Ben Sims:

You did? Who are you referring to? If it's Jimbo Wagner, he's even crazier than I am. I saw him over at Gulph Mills about a month ago. I hadn't seen him in a while. He took off his head phones and got out of his trac-o to say hello. I asked him how he was doing and he said he'd been doing fine until I showed up!

But that was not the worst. About 2-3 years ago at Gil's annual Christmas party I believe Jimbo Wagner surreptiously set the back of my blazer on fire for some damn reason I've never been able to understand or explain. But it might've had something to do with that story about Kittleman smoking a cigar with a paper bag over his head (he apparently very artistically cut out some holes for eyes, nose and mouth) out on a site in the high wind and the paper bag caught on fire and his head almost caught on fire too.

The higher reaches of the true creative process in golf course architecture is really something to behold!

[TEPaul]

"Did anything significant happen to you between Quail Crossing and Pacific Dunes that affected your architectural abilities?"


JC:

I don't know if anything significant happened to Tom Doak between Quail Crossing and Pacific Dunes that affected his architectural abilities but I can tell you something really significant happened to Gil Hanse at some point between say Iniscronne and the Boston Club that really significantly affected his architectural abilities.

He cut of that ridiculous callow little excuse for a mustache he used to have and he has been on a massive architectural success roll ever since. Even the Japanese and Chinese seem to trust him now.
 
 

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

Did anything significant happen to you between Quail Crossing and Pacific Dunes that affected your architectural abilities?

JC,

The only really big thing that happened In that stretch was that I got divorced, and then fell in love again.  But I was happily married when we were working on Quail Crossing, so I don't think you can really discount it on that basis.  I did have to struggle with the client a lot more at Quail Crossing than I did with Mike Keiser, too; I will take 50% of the blame for the former and give Mike 50% of the credit for the latter.

Don M,

I don't remember specifically saying anything about the ideal age for a superintendent.  The main qualification for us is to find someone that will want to stay at the course for a long time, instead of using the job as the springboard to another job.

[Steve Okula]

Tom,

Did anything significant happen to you between Quail Crossing and Pacific Dunes that affected your architectural abilities?

JC,

The only really big thing that happened In that stretch was that I got divorced, and then fell in love again.  But I was happily married when we were working on Quail Crossing, so I don't think you can really discount it on that basis.  I did have to struggle with the client a lot more at Quail Crossing than I did with Mike Keiser, too; I will take 50% of the blame for the former and give Mike 50% of the credit for the latter.

Don M,

I don't remember specifically saying anything about the ideal age for a superintendent.  The main qualification for us is to find someone that will want to stay at the course for a long time, instead of using the job as the springboard to another job.

Tom,

I can’t remember which thread it was now, but some years ago I remember you talking about hiring a GCS for one of your projects, and you said he was “…the best young superintendent around…” or words to that effect. I inferred from your statement that a young GCS was inherently superior to an old one.

I remember that Don and I both responded with dismay. I think he took it the same way I did and this may be what he’s referring to here.

I’ve been a GCS since 1980, and I have no doubt whatsoever that I’m better now than I’ve ever been and miles better than during the eighties.

[TEPaul]

"The main qualification for us is to find someone that will want to stay at the course for a long time, instead of using the job as the springboard to another job."


TomD:

In that case I may have the ideal candidate for you. He's an awesome agronomist but he's only about two and a half at the moment so the chances are pretty good he will be with you for quite a long time----and if he tries to escape in the next decade and a half or so using your job as a springboard to another job you can always sick the Truant Office on him. How's your toy inventory, by the way?

[Mike_Young]

Speaking of young and old supts...it will be interesting to see how the young supts coming into the business now see things as compared to the young supts that came in during the late 90's and early 2000's....

[TEPaul]

Mike:

Not to divert the subject of this thread but if anyone would, you may know the answer to who holds the record for being at a single club as a superintendent/greenkeeper the longest.

I can offer Eb Steineger who was at Pine Valley a bit over fifty years and also Lenny Blodgett of Kittanset who was apparently there about the same amount of time.

[Jerry Kluger]

Well I see that the Thanksgiving season has not brought much civility to the discussion but anyway let me pose a related question.

Can anyone point to a significant difference we might see if C & C did SH today - again, let's stay away from the routing and concentrate on hole features.  How about TD at Pac Dunes - any differences?

[TEPaul]

"You're right, Tom; but it is AN appropriate question.  The answer to which will lead to another appropriate question."



JC:

When I told you that asking John Kavanaugh if he had played High Pointe might not be the appropriate question, I fear you may've misunderstood my meaning to some extent.

What I meant to say was you probably should've just cut directly to the chase with John Kavanaugh and asked him if he thinks Socrates was a douche because it appears that was the answer he really wanted to give on here, and so all you needed to do was ask him the appropriate question which was not; "Have you played High Pointe?" but----"Do you think Socrates was a douche?"   
 
 

[Don_Mahaffey]

Tom,

Did anything significant happen to you between Quail Crossing and Pacific Dunes that affected your architectural abilities?

JC,

The only really big thing that happened In that stretch was that I got divorced, and then fell in love again.  But I was happily married when we were working on Quail Crossing, so I don't think you can really discount it on that basis.  I did have to struggle with the client a lot more at Quail Crossing than I did with Mike Keiser, too; I will take 50% of the blame for the former and give Mike 50% of the credit for the latter.

Don M,

I don't remember specifically saying anything about the ideal age for a superintendent.  The main qualification for us is to find someone that will want to stay at the course for a long time, instead of using the job as the springboard to another job.

Tom,
Nowadays a course you guys build is more likely seen as a destination then a step in the journey of a super's career. One thing for sure you'll find a lot more supers willing to sign a 10-year contract then clubs/courses willing to offer one.

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