HJ Tweedie

[Phil McDade]

A link to Greg's write-up on Flossmoor, one of Tweedie's more notable works, with some insight into Tweedie's work:

http://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/flossmoor-country-club

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

I'm not really sure that the nine holes Tweedie built in 1898 were that highly regarded, except as perhaps a place for Philadelphians to play winter golf...I'm not even sure any of it survived the expansion to 18 by John Reid a few years later, much less a zillion other subsequent revisions in the next 25 years and beyond.

I have a drawing of the original nine.  If time permits later today I'll see if I can get it posted here.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Gentlemen,

As someone with a mild interest in Tweedie based on my years in Chicago, I appreciate all this info coming forward. 

It doesn't help me one iota, and for some reason, I still am fascinated by all of this info. 

Not to mention, this is golf club atlas at its best!

[Ray Cross]

Jeff Brauer,
I agree...in all the threads I've followed over the years, this has been excellant. (full discloseur...never even seen any golf course in/near Chicago).
Keep posting and I'll keep reading and learning.

Thanks

REC

[Tom MacWood]

I'm not sure how the amateur question was resolved but a few weeks after the controversy Tweedie was playing in matches again.

[TEPaul]

As to whatever this question of Tweedie's amateur status or what's been called his amateur status controversy was about it would be helpful to know when it occured. I mention that because as of 1897 the USGA had an amateur status section in place in their constitution or by-laws or Rules that pretty specifically stated that they did not consider a golfer of skill to be an amateur who received remuneration for work done in architecture or even receiving compensation for any service provided to a club (such as being paid to be a club secretary). Therefore it would be very interesting to know if Tweedie ever tried to play in a US Amateur either before or after this so-called controversy.

I should also note that if an amateur status question went to the USGA in the late 1890s it would probably be determined to some extent by C.B. Macdonald as he was probably the most prominent of the two who were assigned by the USGA at the time to oversee Rules questions.

I think some of us have a pretty fair idea where Macdonald stood on the subject of keeping the game "clean" of the taint of commercialism or semi-professionalism.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TePaul,

TMac posted it - 1896. That makes it seem as if CBM and USGA perhaps initiated that rule the next year in part because of the Tweedie incident.  Kind of makes you wonder if the Tweedie-CBM relationship cooled off after that, since its been said that they were friends early on.

That man was busy!  8 kids, Sporting goods store manager, McGregor club rep, club manager at Onwenstia!  And, some independent design work, either coming from CBM at first, or Spaulding, or his own connections.  I think we can conclude he had strong sex drive and work ethic!

[TEPaul]

"TePaul,
TMac posted it - 1896. That makes it seem as if CBM and USGA perhaps initiated that rule the next year in part because of the Tweedie incident."



Jeff:

With this wording in the USGA's 1897 Section 9, "...or laid out of taken charge of a golf links for hire,'..." it would seem to address what Tweedie had done or was doing.

Macdonald did write in his autobiography a number of specific details of events leading up to various Rules considerations over the years but he did not mention Tweedie or this one.

The amateur status situations and the USGA's approach to them over the years are pretty complex and at various times they were really criticized by some and vociferously. At the time in question here and with Travis the most vocal critics seemed to be some of the newspapers and Outing Magazine. During the Ouimet situation in the teens the two prominent golf magazines, American Golfer and Golf Illustrated really went after the USGA even suggesting they were so autocratic that the Western Golf Association should be the representative of American Golf. Of course the Western Golf Association and the USGA had a long running dispute over the Rules of Golf with the USGA. Macdonald called the Western Golf Association the recalcitrants.

One of the primary criticisms of the USGA on amateur status from what might be called the conservatives was that they were not active or aggressive enough on keeping the game what was then called "clean." The primary reason was the USGA insisted that if there was a problem with a golfer's amateur status the problem must first be officially recorded by a member club and then sent to the USGA for review.

[Jason Topp]

I presume Marshalltown is now Elmwood Country Club.  Its website claims it dates to 1898

http://www.elmwoodcc.com/default.aspx

[Tom MacWood]

I found a few more courses designed by Tweedie: Skokie (IL), River Forest (IL) and Terre Haute (IN).

Frank Lloyd Wright was a member of River Forest, and designed its clubhouse.

[Tom MacWood]

Here is an expanded list of Tweedie's designs:

Aurora, IL
Belmont, IL
Exmoor, IL
Glen View, IL
Hinsdale, IL
Midlothian, IL
Bryn Mawr, IL
Homewood, IL
Westwart Ho!, IL
Skokie, IL
Jacksonville, IL
LaGrange, IL
Onwentsia, IL
Park Ridge, IL
Quincy, IL
River Forest, IL
Rockford, IL
Ouilmette, Wilmette, IL
Washington Park, IL
Winona, Winona Lake, IL
Terre Haute, IN
Marshalltown, IA
Louisville, KY
Lake Harbor, MI
CC of Atlantic City, NJ
Hotel Victory, Put-in-Bay, OH
Fountain Springs, Waukesha, WI
Maple Bluff, Madison, WI

[Dan Moore]

Tom,

Is there a reason Glen View is not on your list?  Pretty sure he laid-out the original nine holes.  Not entirely sure about the 2nd nine holes. 

[TEPaul]

Dan:

Glen View has been mentioned on this thread but perhaps not as an original Tweedie (it was mentioned that he belonged to the club).

I will look in my files but some years ago Wayne and I did a bit of historical consulting with Glen View; it was around the time they were going through their restoration. We went out there for a few days with our Flynn material. There was something there before Flynn came in and did an extensive redesign and/or addition. I will see what I can find in the files on what was there before Flynn and who did it. It may've been Tweedie; I just don't remember at the moment.

I do remember that one of the interesting historical things about the place was the work done there way back when by a pretty prominent and famous landscape architect from the Chicago area. I can't remember his name either at the moment but there were a few threads about Glen View's history that are way in the back pages now.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

Is there a reason Glen View is not on your list?  Pretty sure he laid-out the original nine holes.  Not entirely sure about the 2nd nine holes. 

No, an oversight on my part.

[TEPaul]

I would think if this thread on Tweedie is to gain much educational value as to comparative architecture or the quality of Tweedie's architecture or his talent that something should be pretty specifically identified on here on what is actually left of any of it today.

[Tom MacWood]

I think the fact that a fairly high percentage of the courses he laid out are still in existence in some form or another is credit to him. What golf architect of his era has a comparable resume?

[Tom MacWood]

I count eight golf courses Tweedie was involved in laying out that hosted major championships...that is pretty impressive too.

[TEPaul]

"I think the fact that a fairly high percentage of the courses he laid out are still in existence in some form or another is credit to him. What golf architect of his era has a comparable resume?"



I think it can be some pretty tricky business, as well as quite misleading, to compare "resumes" from that era or frankly any era when one gets into trying to combine and consider the dual aspects of both quality and quanity.

I say that because I personally do not believe any architect who concentrated mostly on quality at the expense of quantity should be taken out of consideration on the quality of his architectural work or career or resume, even if that went to the extent that his resume consisted of one or two courses, particularly if they were considered world class originally and still are today.

[Mike Cirba]

Here's Tweedie's nine-holer for Atlantic City Country Club.

I believe some of his other design schematics are included in the Golfer's Green Book, which is a collection of turn of the century Chicago land courses.   Perhaps someone can post some of those for comparison?

Thanks.

[Dan Moore]

Glen View is of particular significance on Tweedie's resume.  It may in fact be the first true parkland course in the US.  The original 9 holes, most of which at least in terms of routing remain in play today, was routed through rolling woodland and more than 300 large trees and 2,000 small trees were removed during construction.  The original 9 opened on July 10, 1897.  The 2nd nine opened the following year making Glen View the 3rd 18 hole course in Chicago. 

Landscape architect O.C. Simonds was engaged to landscape the club grounds.  Scottish pro Richard Leslie was hired to keep the green. 

[Mike Cirba]

Sorry for the misfire.   The ACCC schematic and associated info is now viewable.

[Mike Cirba]

Is Tweedie's Chicago architecture more compelling than what he did at ACCC?

[Tom MacWood]

Is Tweedie's Chicago architecture more compelling than what he did at ACCC?

Mike
Compelling compare to what? I'm on by blackberry so I can't see your images, but I presume the features are geometric. What golf architect in American did not use geometric features in the 1890s?

[TEPaul]

"What golf architect in American did not use geometric features in the 1890s?"


Herbert Corey Leeds

And thankfully his 1890s product to that affect is still pretty much all there for us to see---at least those of us who are actually willing to make the effort to actually go to Myopia to see it! 

[Jeff_Brauer]

TePaul,

1. Play nice
2. Desire alone is not enough to see Myopia. It is one of the few clubs who has flat out rejected my pleasant call as a gca to get in the gates for a brief tour.  Most of us don't have the connections to get in, so willingness has little to do with it.