Who designed Shawnee?

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom Paul,

I would love for this thread to end... as well as all communication with Tom. Unfortunately he brazenly accused me of "conjecture" when he has nothing upon which to base it and also does so once again. He accuses me of making things up. He, of course, is both fool and idiot.

I am done with him and only posted here once again because you asked a question.

[TEPaul]

Philip:

Very good; I hope you stick to that. If he continues on in the same vein he has for some years on here does anything Tom MacWood says to you at this point really deserve your response?

Actually, I'd say it may be fine to respond to him if he ever actually says anything on here that is intelligently declarative but to hereinafter refrain from responding if he continues with those endless leading questions of his which are all excellent examples of irrelevencies.

[Jeff_Brauer]

BTW, what American born gca designed a course earlier than 1898?



CB Macdonald, Lawrence Van Etten, Arthur Fenn, CC Worthingon, Ed Tufts, George Wright, Leonard Tufts, D. Leroy Culver, CE Orr, PE Bowles, FD Fairbanks, E. Conde Smith, FQ Brown, SE Blunt, and WS Pierce are few American born designers in 1898 or earlier. According to the Harpers Golf Guide there were 872 golf courses in America in 1899 my guess would at least fifty were laid out by Americans, probably more.

TMac,

Thanks for that list. I figured there had to be some, but wasn't going to go through Whitten and Cornish to find out, at least yesterday.  It is so nice that someone has enough intererst to have researched that era so much and have it at their fingertips. 

I also figured most were laid out by Scottish golf pros, which would be the stereotype for pre 1900, and if only 50 were laid out by American's I guess that would fit the general perception.

Going back to the question of Tillie being the dean, it appears that the use of that term included longevity, and the quality of work during that longevity.  Certainly, Tillie had earned those kind of accolades, even if some might question the exact wording as an academic excersise. 

[TEPaul]

Mr. Jeffrey:

The list of American born men who laid out and/or designed courses in America before 1898 is a whole lot longer than the list Tom MacWood just produced but most all of them should probably not be considered of much significance in the annals of American golf course architecture. Matter of fact, about half the names on that list above aren't even in Cornish and Whitten and probably shouldn't be considered of much significance in the annals of American architecture either. I'm sure you've noticed over the years that MacWood is quite the name dropper and when he drops some names that he probably figures few on here have ever heard of he tends to try to add significance to them. An excellent example of that was his claim that was reported on the Merion threads that HH Barker was considered to be the second best architect in America around 1914.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mr Paul, my good man,

Perhaps there were more American born layouts.  So many of those 872 golf courses did not use a gca because they didn't exist at the time and I doubt there were over 800 Scotish golf pros in the US who could layout courses either.  So, most were lost to history. 

I know TMac thinks they are important, and they are, just because they did early work.  Also, those whose names have been largely forgotten over time,  like HH Barker, who did in fact produce some decent work for the era.  It is a matter of gentlemanly speculation as to just how good and important those like Barker were and whether history has so far gotten it wrong with a need to make it right....or, just add to what we know by looking at heretofore lesser studied gca's.

I have always said TMac is one of our best resources here for digging out facts like that above.  From time to time, we disagree on the meaning of certain things, and even get pissy about it, but really, that at least half our fault, no? 

To your last point, was there even a ranking of gca's in 1914?  Probably not formally, at least as far as I know.  So, any speculation based on what they thought back then is sure to be frought with danger.

Short version: I am trying to play nice as we all agreed a while back. I see little reason to bring back up old sore points on the new and improved golfclubatlas.com.

[TEPaul]

Mr. Jeffrey:

No---of course you're right---eg we on here speculate about many things and have disagreements about many, many things as well and I have no problem with that at all. It would seem you and I are in some disagreement about Tom MacWood and his value on some of these threads and that's fine too of course!  

And I think this certainly is the new and improved GOLFCLUATLAS.com----and as a result of that I am no longer insulting Tom MacWood----merely disagreeing with him where I have some disagreement with him which is just about everything he says on here, particularly in the last seven years or so.  

Additionally, I'm glad to hear you're trying to play nice on here with Tom MacWood---it would seem that recently he does need to find a friend.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TePaul,

On the new and improved gca.com, I now notice even the slightest of insults and "tweaks."  I called TMac out on one - calling Tillies supporters claim of being the dean of gca as "misleading" I thought was inflamatory enough to warrant a response from Phil, and it was, even though TMac may have just not thought that choice of words through.

Similarly, I am basically calling you out. Your last two posts may not outright insult Tmac, but their intent is still clear enough to see.

While I have disagreed with Tom MacWood on some of his analysis, I come from a perspective of having been in similar situations as the gca, albeit in different eras, and he comes at it from seeing many different sources of material as more of a historian.  We have disagreed when I apply my perspective to speculation/conjecture/analysis and he applies his.  The funny thing about most of those types of arguments is, we may both die, go to heaven, and find out we were both so far off base as to laugh about it.  Why not start now?

BTW, I don't know why I am thinking about this, and almost hate to bring it up here, but we failed to note a historic day 5 days ago didn't we?  It was the 100th anniversary of the presentation of the Merion Land Plan to the members, or at least the date of the plan.  In this next month, we ought to be raising our glasses to toast the consumation of the land deal, and several other historic transactions at MCC, don't you think?

[TEPaul]

Mr. Jeffrey:

I'm sorry to see you say I'm insulting Tom MacWood. I don't believe so unless you feel that telling him that I disagree with him and why and how much is an insult.

You're right, we sure did miss the centennial of the presentation of the Merion plan on here. But I suppose that's understandable on this website at this point as it seems pretty near everyone on here is sick and tired of even seeing the name Merion.

However, some good things are in the works with Merion about much of this stuff that was so contentious on here. The club believes that it should write up and have its own presentation of this particular era and the details of it. The thought is if they don't, come the US Open the hundreds of press people might only find the contents of numerous Merion threads of this website on Google that focused on the adverserial discussions on that factually far-fetched and fallacious essay.

In their opinion, and in mine, that would definitely not be a good thing at all for the accurate presentation of Merion East's original architectural history, so they will be producing their own specific in detail essays that will be sans speculation which was pretty much the hallmark of the threads about it on this website.  

[TEPaul]

"In this next month, we ought to be raising our glasses to toast the consumation of the land deal, and several other historic transactions at MCC, don't you think?"



Indeed I do, Mister Jeffrey:

I think the whole club and all those who admire it and its history so should all raise their glasses to it this coming month---the centennial month and year of the putting together of the MCCGA Co. and the purchasing of the land by Lloyd himself. I think the one who should be toasted centrally and primarily for all this is certainly Horatio Gates Lloyd who over-all may've been one of the most and most interesting angels to a golf club there's ever been, recognizing there sure were a few others around here around the same time who sure were too, such as George A. Crump.

And in January, 2011, and likely on Jan. 11, 2011 we should all toast the creation of the Wilson Committee who together created one of the world's greatest golf courses and managed to do it despite being labeled as a bunch of know-nothing novices at the time by a couple of GOLFCLUBATLAS.com's self-proclaimed "expert researcher/historians"  

It's just amazing what some raw talent can do, and right outta the box, don't you know!?

Oh, I'm sorry; this thread is about Shawnee, isn't it? Did you know, Mr Jeffrey, that the Shawnee Indians of Pennsylvania who inhabited that area where Tillie designed his first real course and that amazing southern Canadian tribe known as the Waathufuquawees? that were from the region where Macdonald's family came from in southern Canada got into one helluva violent rumble back apparently in December 1510 which would make this next month and this year the quincentennial of that historic event?

Yep, apparently the Waathufuquawees? were hot on the tail of a pretty fast rabbit just north of Niagara Falls and as they were so wont to do they took a wrong turn just before the toll booth, got completely lost AGAIN (hence their tribe name "Waathufuquawee?") and the next thing they knew the Shawnee were attacking them in Pennsylvania.

Furthermore, March 28, 2011 has been designated the centennial day and year of Richard Francis's brainstorm to solve the final problems on the final five holes including the expanding of the area of #15 green and #16 tee. There will be some hundreds of us on that day who, shortly after midnight will ride our bicycles first to Horatio's house on Cooperstown Rd and then to Merion's clubhouse and toast him----Richard the Francis, that is----and then very likely all break out in song.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I laid that old Johnny Carson joke on my teenage daughter when we visited LA a few years ago.  She had never heard that and giggled a good ten minutes, maybe as much as Dad making that insinuation.  She had never heard of my personal fave - the old Carnac jokes JC did.  And the "Slauson Cutoff".  Ah, good times.

[TEPaul]

Ah, yes, Carnac the Magnificent!!

Where have you gone Joe DiMaggio? A nation turns its lonely eyes on you. As for you Marilyn, the great delicious MM, warming your tush over a hot NYC subway vent----probably the most uplifting single photograph ever taken!

Who designed Shawnee indeed?!

[Tom MacWood]

BTW, what American born gca designed a course earlier than 1898?



CB Macdonald, Lawrence Van Etten, Arthur Fenn, CC Worthingon, Ed Tufts, George Wright, Leonard Tufts, D. Leroy Culver, CE Orr, PE Bowles, FD Fairbanks, E. Conde Smith, FQ Brown, SE Blunt, and WS Pierce are few American born designers in 1898 or earlier. According to the Harpers Golf Guide there were 872 golf courses in America in 1899 my guess would at least fifty were laid out by Americans, probably more.

TMac,

Thanks for that list. I figured there had to be some, but wasn't going to go through Whitten and Cornish to find out, at least yesterday.  It is so nice that someone has enough intererst to have researched that era so much and have it at their fingertips.  

I also figured most were laid out by Scottish golf pros, which would be the stereotype for pre 1900, and if only 50 were laid out by American's I guess that would fit the general perception.

Going back to the question of Tillie being the dean, it appears that the use of that term included longevity, and the quality of work during that longevity.  Certainly, Tillie had earned those kind of accolades, even if some might question the exact wording as an academic excersise.  

You won't find that many early American golf architects in C&W. I'd agree the majority of early American course were laid out by foreigners. Tilly was not the Dean of American born golf architects; he exaggerated. At best he would have been #4 in longevity. It is not something you earn, either you are or you aren't.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tom Mac,

I disagree that you don't earn it, citing again my ficticitous example of Woody Hayes vs some junior college coach.  And, by the fact that different admiring journalists used the phrase for different gca's in the same time period.  There is no official designation, no strict definition, a la websters.  If some writer labels Tillie the dean, then some writer labels Tillie the dean and if a consensus forms, it sticks.

As far as I know, no one really challenged any of the use of monikers until you!  So, consensus over 90 years is pretty damn good.  All, IMHO, of course.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom Mac,

I disagree that you don't earn it, citing again my ficticitous example of Woody Hayes vs some junior college coach.  And, by the fact that different admiring journalists used the phrase for different gca's in the same time period.  There is no official designation, no strict definition, a la websters.  If some writer labels Tillie the dean, then some writer labels Tillie the dean and if a consensus forms, it sticks.

As far as I know, no one really challenged any of the use of monikers until you!  So, consensus over 90 years is pretty damn good.  All, IMHO, of course.

Yours is a poor example. Are you trying to say CB Macdonald and Devereux Emmet were junior college coaches compared to Tilly? I think they did challenge it, Jim Kennedy gave one or two examples of Emmet being called the Dean.

[TEPaul]

 ".....see the Harry Colt thread where he led on Sean Arble with phony claims of documented proof of Harry Colt coming's and going's from the U.S. based upon British ship manifests,..."


Philip:

Did Tom MacWood not supply those ship manifests he mentioned on Colt returning to England? I thought he did. I am very interested in knowing about the existence or accuracy of ship manifests of the UK of that era for a number of other reasons. I hope he's not just speculating about them.

I'll take a look at that Colt thread. On it I think I asked MacWood or Moriarty if they could actually produce one of those UK digitized ship manifests but I forget what their response was.

[Tom MacWood]

".....see the Harry Colt thread where he led on Sean Arble with phony claims of documented proof of Harry Colt coming's and going's from the U.S. based upon British ship manifests,..."


Philip:

Did Tom MacWood not supply those ship manifests he mentioned on Colt returning to England? I thought he did. I am very interested in knowing about the existence or accuracy of ship manifests of the UK of that era for a number of other reasons. I hope he's not just speculating about them.

I'll take a look at that Colt thread. On it I think I asked MacWood or Moriarty if they could actually produce one of those UK digitized ship manifests but I forget what their response was.

If you have doubts why don't you get off your lazy derriere and look it up yourself for once in your life. Ancestry.com is accessible to anyone with internet access willing to pay the nominal fee.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

No doubt CBM at least could also be called dean of...gca, albeit it Tillie may not have deemed him American born (Scot and Canadian parents according to CW).  I don't think Emmet did enough to be considered the "dean."

Perhaps this is semantics, but I don't call different writers using similar accolades for different gca's they admire as a "challenge."  I just don't see the use of "dean of" as such a black and white excersise as you might.  I doubt the writers who hung those accolades on these guys did either.

[TEPaul]

I should certainly asks you the same questions about why you never bothered to go to Pine Valley, Merion, Myopia, Aronimink and North Shore to do research if you have the interest in their architectural histories you seem to say on here that you do.  

As for Ancestory.com, there are plenty of people on here other than you who apparently use it. I'm quite sure eventually they will confirm or deny that UK digital ship manifests from that particular time are on it.

[Tom MacWood]

I should certainly asks you the same questions about why you never bothered to go to Pine Valley, Merion, Myopia, Aronimink and North Shore to do research if you have the interest in their architectural histories you seem to say on here that you do.  

As for Ancestory.com, there are plenty of people on here other than you who apparently use it. I'm quite sure eventually they will confirm or deny that UK digital ship manifests from that particular time are on it.

Why don't you confirm or deny it instead of relying on others to do research for you?

[TEPaul]

"Why don't you confirm or deny it instead of relying on others to do research for you?" 
 






Tom MacWood:

Probably because I have never been very interested in subscribing to Ancestory.com. Others have and I know they use it but frankly I've never even been sure of its credibility and that may be because I don't believe I have ever seen anyone who has used it on here put any actual documentation copies from it on here. Someone recently said that might be because it's copyrighted. I'm not sure I understand what that is or what that means in the context of Ancestory.com. If someone who subscribes to it and uses it actually finds something like a UK digitized ship manifest from the late 19th or early 20th century on it I would think that (the digitized UK ship manifests) would be public domain information.

Of course my other question and concern is whether or not you're simply stonewalling because you never actually did find an actual or digitized copy of UK ship manifests from that time and place. If you actually had I would assume you would post it on here as you have so much other old material. But if you haven't actually found digitized or actual UK ship manifests from that time I guess I understand why it is you act like you are now with responses like the ones quoted above.