Devereux Emmet Society

[TEPaul]

"TEP,
I have seen an article or two saying that VH was formerly LI., I haven't seen any articles on Vernon Hills earlier than '40ish although they could very well exist. If it's an Emmet, what was the name of the course when he built it?"


Jim:

I have not heard of the club but it's my understanding he's saying it was originally a private course known as Vernon Hills in Tuckahoe/Eastchester NY that was eventually bought by the town of Eastchester for its residents.

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
You have continually tried to make a mockery of Emmet in the past please try to refrain from that here. This is a very good thread. I don't believe I was the first to point out that Findlay advised Emmet and Hubbell at GCGC. George Hubbell is another interesting but unknown figure in golf architecture. I believe he was president of the Garden City Company, and he was also involved in the design of Salisbury Links and Glenwood (now known as North Shore). He may have been involved in others but those three I know.

[Jim_Kennedy]

The Lake Isle course in Eastchester was known as Vernon Hills, and its website says Emmet was the designer. Lake Isle was known for awhile as Lakeview CC when Gene Sarazen leased it in the mid '30s.



Prior to Saracen's involvement the club was known as Mt. Vernon CC. MVCC did not start life at this site, it was originally located in Mt. Vernon, somewhere between the Fleetwood and Chester Hill Park sections of that town. MVCC moved to the Eastchester site in the '20s and built a new course on a site that had been used by Siwanoy and Sunningdale before they landed on their present day sites.




..... no other menton of Emmet yet.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Just happened across this article about Mayflower, thought I'd post it:

http://tinyurl.com/3a8hegf

[Phil_the_Author]

Jim,

Considering the date the course began construction (August 1929) do you think the paucity of information on it may be due to the stock market crash and beginnings of the Great Depression in NOvember and maybe it was then never completed?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Phil,
I think the conclusion was drawn earlier, By David Moriarty and Mike Sweeney, that the course was built and is now known as South Shore GC.
No one posted any paper at the time so I thought it wouldn't hurt to do so if and when any was found.

I just found another possible Emmet called Green Meadow CC. Today it's known as Willow Ridge CC. I was having a hard time finding it's location until I read an article that mentioned Green Meadow as abutting Apawamis.  
The club's website attributes it to Maurice J McCarthy Sr., but one article that I read stated the members were looking at Tillinghast, Travis or Emmet to design the course.

Here's part of another article that says it was Emmet.

THE EVENING POST: NEW YORK, WEDNESDAY, MARCH 6, 1918
 After serving In the capacity of caddiemaster for many years, George Hughes is leaving the Apawamis Club to become professional at the neighboring Green Meadow organization. He will enter upon his new duties next month. The Green Meadow course is new, having been laid out by Devereux Emmet, and, according to the latter, will present one of the best tests of golf to be found anywhere.

edit: The only reference to McCarthy I have found at Green Meadow was one about his son, and here's a part of that article :

He (McCarthy Jr.) is a member of t h e Old Flatbush Club, of which his father, a veteran among golf professionals  and architects, is manager.
The Green Meadow Club in Rye, whose fairways parallel the famed ninth at Apawamis, has enrolled Maurice as a member.

[mark chalfant]

Jim

This is a great find worth exploring.  There seems to be a ruggedness and routing interest at Willow Ridge that has affininties with Emmets other work in this county

[Tom MacWood]

Peter Lees claimed to have designed a golf course called Greenmeadow. Lees was working with Tillinghast around that time although I don't believe Tilly ever listed it as one of his.

[Jim_Kennedy]

TMac,
I haven’t found any mention of Tillie/Lees in connection with Green Meadow. The closest I could place Lees was right next door at Apawamis in 1920, where he was making some substantial changes to the greens at the 4th, 5th, 8th, and the 18th.

I’ve also come across a 1928 article mentioning that  “…a group of young college and professional men of the University Golf Club”…..  bought the old Turnpike Golf and Country Club, near Great Neck Long Island and that new ‘links’ were    “….laid out and developed last spring under the direction of Devereux Emmet,  golf architect”.
I don't know if this place is something 'new' or it's something that's already known, but by a different name.

I also found a 1926 article that places Emmet in Oswego, NY, planning changes to nearly all of their greens (and possibly some re-routing) for the purpose of modernizing the course. OCC was started in 1897 and Tillinghast did some re-modeling of this course in 1915.









edit:   Still no mention of Lees, but I did find that Green Meadow was successively known as Ferncrest, Hasty Brook, Willows and Harrison
Country Clubs before becoming Willow Ridge.

[Mike Sweeney]

http://devereuxemmetsociety.blogspot.com/2010/12/ridgewood-country-club-aerial-from.html

I posted this over on Mark's Emmet Blog, just curious from Mark, Jim Kennedy or others how much Emmet is left at Ridgewood in Danbury, CT as I have never played it. With Cornish and Rulewich coming in behind, it seems like a similar pattern as some other more famous courses.

[Tom MacWood]

TMac,
I haven’t found any mention of Tillie/Lees in connection with Green Meadow. The closest I could place Lees was right next door at Apawamis in 1920, where he was making some substantial changes to the greens at the 4th, 5th, 8th, and the 18th.

I’ve also come across a 1928 article mentioning that  “…a group of young college and professional men of the University Golf Club”…..  bought the old Turnpike Golf and Country Club, near Great Neck Long Island and that new ‘links’ were    “….laid out and developed last spring under the direction of Devereux Emmet,  golf architect”.
I don't know if this place is something 'new' or it's something that's already known, but by a different name.

I also found a 1926 article that places Emmet in Oswego, NY, planning changes to nearly all of their greens (and possibly some re-routing) for the purpose of modernizing the course. OCC was started in 1897 and Tillinghast did some re-modeling of this course in 1915.









edit:   Still no mention of Lees, but I did find that Green Meadow was successively known as Ferncrest, Hasty Brook, Willows and Harrison
Country Clubs before becoming Willow Ridge.

In the 1926 Golf Guide they list a University Golf Club in Great Neck, Established in 1923, Nine holes and 3000 yards.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
I've only been there one time, and it was so long ago (25yrs. or so) that if you told me Emmet built the course I'd of asked "the clown?"  

[Jim_Kennedy]

DavidM,
This article appears to confirm the other reports that Emmet was at the Antlers club.
 

[Tom MacWood]

I believe William Tucker was credited for Antlers in C&W. I remember an article written by Ron Whitten in which there was a schematic of a green and greenside bunker at the course shaped like a deer-head and antlers. I wonder if Emmet was responsible.

[Chris_Blakely]

According to one of our former contributors to this website who was a wonderful and informed participant who now chooses not to participate and who has for years been interested in Devereux Emmet, Lake Isle and Vernon Hills is one and the same golf course.

You don't need this mystery contributor . . . Lake Isle and Vernon Hills are the same course.  However, the Lake Isle today is a far cry from what it used to be after a Stephen Kay renovation.

Chris

[Chris_Blakely]

Be curious to hear from Tom Mac and Jim Kennedy, what courses do you think are the Top 3 of so Emmet courses that can be/should be restored using St George's as a model of sorts.

That is a very good question and I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer it. I love St. George's, Huntington and Belmont Hills (here in Ohio), but I'd rather submit to the Emmet experts like Chris Blakely, Mark, and Daniel Wexler. I asked Chris several years ago on GCA what he thought were DE's top half dozen best designs:

!. St. Georges
2. Leatherstocking
3. Wee Burn
4. Mohawk
5. McGregor Links
6. Huntington Cresent West
7. Meadowbrook
8. Congressional
9. Seawane
10. Pelham

This list was prior to have the pleasure of playing Huntington Country Club which is easily one of his top three courses that still exist.

Chris

[Chris_Blakely]

You can add the following courses to your list:

Webster Dudley GC (FNA Nichols College GC), MA

Port Jefferson CC, NY (Emmet did the original 9 holes with Tull)

Manchester CC, CT

The Edison Club is 27 holes

Laurelton GC was two courses

South Shore GC (NY)

Copake Lake CC (NY)

That's the one's I quickly noticed were missing - great work so far.   

Chris

[Jim_Kennedy]

TMac,
Yes, it was Tucker for the original course (9) in 1900, Emmet in 1923. I haven't seen anything about how much of the original was kept.


Thought these might be interesting.  Emmet's estate, Sherrewogue, on L.I.

 
 

[Kyle Henderson]

http://www.metgolfer-digital.com/metgolfer/20100809?pg=43#pg43

[Jim_Kennedy]

Kyle,
I wouldn't doubt that Copake Lake CC could be an Emmet, but what new evidence has been brought out to show that it is? Last I recall no one had found anything concrete. 

[Kyle Henderson]

Kyle,
I wouldn't doubt that Copake Lake CC could be an Emmet, but what new evidence has been brought out to show that it is? Last I recall no one had found anything concrete. 

I have not the foggiest idea. I just thought I'd pass the article along. My knowledge of Emmet's work is confined to a single round at St. George's in October of this year -- and you can bet I'm eager to seek out more of his creations.

[Tom MacWood]

Here is an updated list.

Farmington CC (Ct)
Hob Nob Hill GC (Ct)
Keney Park GC (Ct)
Manchester CC (Ct)
Ridgewood CC (Ct)
Wee Burn CC (Ct)
Henry DuPont Estate (De)
Beaver Dam (Md)
Congressional CC (Md)
Cape Cod CC (Ma)
Lenox GC (Ma)
Nichols College GC (Ma) [Webster Dudley
Cooper River CC (NJ)
Greenarces CC (NJ)
Rockaway River CC (NJ)
Albany CC (NY)
Lenox Hills CC (NY) [Bethpage-Green]
Briarcliff Manor CC (NY)
Broadmoor CC (NY)
Salisbury Links (NY) [Cherry Valley]
Coldstream GC (NY)
Copake Lake CC (NY)
The Edison C (NY), 27 holes
Salisbury GL #1, #2, #3, #4, #5 (NY) [Eisenhower Park]
Garden City GC (NY)
Women’s National G&CC (NY) [Glen Head]
Glenwood CC (NY) [North Shore]
Grassy Spain CC (NY)
Hampshire CC (NY)
Harrison Williams Estate (NY)
Hillcrest GC (NY)
Huntington Crescent CC East/West (NY)
Huntington CC (NY)
Intercollegiate GC (NY)
Lake Isle CC (NY)
Laurelton GC North/South (NY)
Lawrence GC (NY)
Leatherstocking CC (NY)
Leewood GC (NY)
Mahopac GC (NY)
Manhattan CC (NY)
Mayflower GC (NY)
McGregor GL (NY)
Meadowbrook C (NY)
Mechanicsville CC (NY)
Mohawk GC (NY)
Nassau CC (NY)
Northport CC (NY)
Old Westbury (NY)
Pelham CC (NY)
Pomonok CC (NY)
Queensboro Links (NY)
Queens Valley GC (NY)
Port Jefferson CC (NY)
Rockaway Hunting C (NY)
Rockville C (NY)
Rockwood Hall CC (NY)
Rye CC (NY)
Schenectady CC (NY)
Schuyler Meadow (NY)
Seawane C (NY)
Shelter Rock CC (NY)
Sherewogue (NY)
South Shore GC (NY)
Stephen Clark Estate (NY)
St. Georges G&CC (NY)
St. Lawrence University (NY)
Vanderbilt Estate (NY)
Vernon Hills CC (NY)
Westechester Women's G&TC (NY)
Wheatley Hills GC (NY)
Hog Back Mountain C (NC)
Belmont Hills CC (Oh)
Charles Schwab Estate (Pa)
Elk County CC (Pa)
St. Mary’s CC (Pa)
Thomas Fortune Ryan Estate (Va)
Wheeling CC (WV)
Bahamas CC (Bahamas)
Cable Beach Hotel (Bahamas)
Belmont Hall & C (Bermuda)
Castle Inn GC (Bermuda)
Hotel Frascati GC (Bermuda)
Riddell’s Bay G&CC (Bermuda)
CC of Santiago (Cuba)

Redesign:
Hartford GC (Ct)
Bedford G&TC (NY)
Bonnie Briar CC (NY)
Engineers GC (NY)
Old Country Club (NY)
Powelton C (NY)
St. Georges Hotel GC (Bermuda)

[Tom MacWood]

Chris
I've not seen a reference to a Port Jefferson CC. Is that the Belle Terre C? I believe Belle Terre was founded in 1907; originally nine holes.

[Joe Bausch]

 Edited!
Some very detailed info on the course in Great Neck, courtesy of the Feb 1, 1919 issue of the NY Tribune.  

[Jim_Kennedy]

Joe,
If you look back at page two you'll see a 1918 article I found about GN.