[Bill_McBride]

John:

I'm arguing that the holes are doglegs in their current configuration.

Isn't the safest and even best play to play away from the direct line to each hole out to the middle of the shared fairway?

I agree that in practice the holes are played as doglegs. Looking at the aerial photo Melvyn posted shows that.

But there is nothing in the way to prevent a play on the line directly at either green, so you can't really call these "doglegs," can you?

[Kyle Harris]

John:

I'm arguing that the holes are doglegs in their current configuration.

Isn't the safest and even best play to play away from the direct line to each hole out to the middle of the shared fairway?

I agree that in practice the holes are played as doglegs. Looking at the aerial photo Melvyn posted shows that.

But there is nothing in the way to prevent a play on the line directly at either green, so you can't really call these "doglegs," can you?

Bill:

How does "cutting the corner" factor into your definition?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Dog Leg, 1 & 18th TOC, lets look again







 

Melvyn

[Sean_A]

Isn't the safest and even best play to play away from the direct line to each hole out to the middle of the shared fairway?

Does a dogleg necessarily have to be defined by anything other than how the hole is best played?

Kyle

I wouldn't necessarily say the best line to each hole is from the middle of the fairway.  It may be the safest, but the two concepts are not the same and shouldn't be treated as such.  

Ciao

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Melvyn,

Thanks for the terrific illustrative birds eye views of the 1st and the 18th.

Do you have one of  the 7th Old Course?

Could the 7th be the first Dog Leg as such?

How long has the 7th been played in this manner – obviously when the course was played in reverse it had another configuration?

[Bill_McBride]

Melvyn,

Thanks for the terrific illustrative birds eye views of the 1st and the 18th.

Do you have one of  the 7th Old Course?

Could the 7th be the first Dog Leg as such?

How long has the 7th been played in this manner – obviously when the course was played in reverse it had another configuration?

John, in reverse the hole plays from a tee over by the 8th green half of the 8th/12th double green and onto the 6th green side of the 6th/12th double green.  So yes, it's a dogleg left in the Reverse routing, and, to add to the general merriment, the second must be hoisted up over the giant gorse which usually is behind #6!

[JESII]

Kyle,

Why would the preferred line into 18 be directly over the Valley of Sin when you could go along side most of it?

Similarly, why is the preferreed angle into the first green from way off to the left?

I haven't played either hole so cannot comment from direct experience, but based on pictures and TV I would bet you're wrong on these. The angle of approach you're advocating is the result of a conservative tee shot, not the other way around.

[Kyle Harris]

Jim:

I've not played it either.

But doesn't the skillset of the golfer determine the strategy?

I guess the base question I'm asking is...

For whom is the hole a dogleg?

[Bill_McBride]

Kyle,

Why would the preferred line into 18 be directly over the Valley of Sin when you could go along side most of it?

Similarly, why is the preferreed angle into the first green from way off to the left?

I haven't played either hole so cannot comment from direct experience, but based on pictures and TV I would bet you're wrong on these. The angle of approach you're advocating is the result of a conservative tee shot, not the other way around.

Jim, if you look at the aerial, you'll see that the direct line to the green on #1 is perilously close to the bend in the burn.  Across the burn to the right is OOB.  On #18, all the ground on the direct line across the little paved road is very broken, so lies can be funky unless you can carry about 290.  There is also OOB all down the right, even more perilous when the wind is into you.

That's why in practice both holes are generally played as doglegs right.   The better caddies typically suggest a line at the bridge on #1 and at the clock on the R&A clubhouse on #18.

You need to get yourself over there, you'll never believe how much St Andrews will beat your expectations!

[Adam Clayman]

JCS, To answer your original posit...No. The reason I'm giving is how refreshing it was to play Interlachen this year. It had so many doglegs, which I found refreshing. Now, I don't think I'd feel that way if the dog leg was over used. But, I suppose it all depends on how much and where one plays the majority of their golf. Since, I never get out much  maybe I'm isolated?   

[Peter Pallotta]

When they're good, there's nothing better. But my, there are a lot of poor ones out there -- probably because doing them well is tough; also probably because they are a tempting fix-all to get past various design annoyances (bad bits of land, environmental areas) --- sort of like the Knight in a game of chess.

Peter

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Bill,

I had a look at the interesting "My Opinion" article by Jeremy Glenn, who did an in-depth anlaysis of the Reverse Old Course layout, and he appears to be confused as to how the Reverse Layout would have been played at the existing 7th.

Here’s his graphic interpretations.





However who really knows how it all looked then, maybe the pin positions were closer together, maybe there was less gorse, and the blind approach over a dune with a feathery wasn’t an issue back in the ancient days.

Did you play the Reverse Layout that they play every April?

[JESII]

Bill,

A visit is absolutely on the top of my wish list...nothing else is close.

Now, about the dogleg versus straight conversation...what you described on both holes seem like people prefer to reduce their tee shot risk by aiming left as opposed to enhancing their approach angle...is this accurate? If so, that seems like a big distinction...one that could turn a dogleg into a straight hole in reverse situations.

[Bill_McBride]

John:

I'm arguing that the holes are doglegs in their current configuration.

Isn't the safest and even best play to play away from the direct line to each hole out to the middle of the shared fairway?

I agree that in practice the holes are played as doglegs. Looking at the aerial photo Melvyn posted shows that.

But there is nothing in the way to prevent a play on the line directly at either green, so you can't really call these "doglegs," can you?

Bill:

How does "cutting the corner" factor into your definition?

What corner, Kyle?  It's a big rectangle with no natural feature that forces a line of play such as a tree or bunkers. 

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Adam and Peter,

Personally I prefer to follow John Mayhughs advice.

“The most enjoyable courses feature at least four doglegs”

I would say more than 7 Dog Legs would be overuse or at least underusing the more versatile straight hole.

...and more than 4 knights on the chess board could get a bit confusing

I’m sure you’ll like this one.



Any guesses where it is?

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

A visit is absolutely on the top of my wish list...nothing else is close.

Now, about the dogleg versus straight conversation...what you described on both holes seem like people prefer to reduce their tee shot risk by aiming left as opposed to enhancing their approach angle...is this accurate? If so, that seems like a big distinction...one that could turn a dogleg into a straight hole in reverse situations.

Jim, the first green is big and flat so there is really no preferred line.  Therefore a line away from the the OOB and the right side bend in the burn is preferred.

The farther left you drive on #18, assuming you can't drive the green, the less your approach flirts with the Valley of Sin.  Almost hole high left removes any concern about the broken ground and OOB out there on the right side.

The Old Course is the absolute zenith of places where there are optional lines of play, all depending on your state of play, the current wind conditions, your nerves, etc etc......You literally confront this kind of decision making all around the course.  It helps to have an experienced caddy the first few times around but cuts down on the decision making.

[Adam Clayman]

JCS, I'll guess Dismal River.

I like the 4 leg theory, 3 would be good too, since my Greyhound had his bone cancer nipped in the bud by having one of his removed.

I once invented the Cat leg hole, but it never took off. I couldn't understand why.

I think the Big World theory holds true in the case of dog legs. There also seems to be a slight definition problem. Slight jogs, severe legs, where do we define the term? 22.5%

[Richard Phinney]

I think we have to be careful looking at layouts of early golf courses and assuming there were few doglegs.  Usually the diagrams merely join a line from one green to the next.  Given that maintenance was minimal there were no doubt all sorts of obstacles/hazards/rough ground that needed to be circumvented which may have necessitated plenty of oblique shots (rather like the 18th on TOC).  On the other hand, 19th century golf seems to have been more of an aerial game than it is today, and it may have been easier at times, to simply bop it over the obstacles....

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Adam

Correct first go!!!

I was going to make an unwitty comment on the lines of, if John Mayhugh’s dog lifted his leg, would his preferred golf course be tree lined, but since you’ve mentioned your pet dog is unfortunately handicapped I won’t make such an insensitive remark.

22.5 degrees or more is now my official angle for the definition of a true Dog Leg with various provisos, number one being the inside line is not more than 25 yards from the  centerline of the turning point as defined by the designer.
Of course this is open to comment!!!

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

I had a look at the interesting "My Opinion" article by Jeremy Glenn, who did an in-depth anlaysis of the Reverse Old Course layout, and he appears to be confused as to how the Reverse Layout would have been played at the existing 7th.

Here’s his graphic interpretations.





However who really knows how it all looked then, maybe the pin positions were closer together, maybe there was less gorse, and the blind approach over a dune with a feathery wasn’t an issue back in the ancient days.

Did you play the Reverse Layout that they play every April?

Jeremy's fine article was written in large part to lay out his suggestions for how the Links Trust ought to lay out the Reverse Course.  As you can imagine, a lot of his ideas centered on the loop, but I don't recall the Links Trust using them!  The hole that I described as the reverse of regular #7 is shown as reverse #12 on Jeremy's plan, but the tee was in the open area between what is shown as #10 and #11 cups on his routing.  It was a sharper dogleg left.  

I played in the Reverse program March 29-April 1st, 2007.  It's a great deal, 150 pounds I think, for a round on the Old, New and Reverse over the three days.  No mats!

[Bill_McBride]

 On the other hand, 19th century golf seems to have been more of an aerial game than it is today, and it may have been easier at times, to simply bop it over the obstacles....

Richard, I assume you are talking about UK golf in your reference above, since USA golf is almost exclusively aerial these days, with a few notable exceptions.   

[Peter Pallotta]

John - I'm glad Adam guessed it because I wouldn't have known. I was going to say only that it was a course built some place that has a lot of land, because it looked like a very spread-out course -- and usually I don't associate that space with a lot of doglegs (but that's my lack of insight and golfing experience).

Peter

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Richard,

One can only speculate how ancient golf was played, probably very erraticly, however the original game simply had a point to play to, which was the beginning and the end of each hole.

These points were marked out and I would speculate that the original lines of play were not designed to have changes of angle of more than 22.5 degrees after 200 or 250 yards or more.

If one chose to play at a different angle from the straight line, for whatever reason that didn’t make the hole a Dog Leg in the modern understanding of the word.

It would be interesting to hear from our distinguished historians when the term “Dog Leg” first entered the golfing vocabulary, and which golf course architects claimed to have one.

Maybe Melvyn can show us a layout of one of Old Tom Morris’s golf courses where a fairway is deliberately drawn with a large angle – or did he not draw any plans.

I don’t suppose he hammered in a post at the turning point in the fairways when he was staking out his new golf courses, as is the current practice nowadays.

[Melvyn Morrow]

John

Prestwick of 1851 in white


And Muirfield

Melvyn

[Adam Clayman]

I was going to make an unwitty comment on the lines of, if John Mayhugh’s dog lifted his leg, would his preferred golf course be tree lined, but since you’ve mentioned your pet dog is unfortunately handicapped I won’t make such an insensitive remark.

No worries, Big Dave is doing very well for a 13 yr. old. He still chases rabbits and cars. He even gets full stride when there's about two feet of snow on the ground.

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