[Mike_Trenham]

Do these courses tip enough to the restoration side for consideration?

Fishers Island
Essex County NJ
Newport CC
Pine Needles
Country Club of Scranton

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I like the work at the Cal Club even if it is not a resoration. Mountain Lake in Lakes Wales was also a very good restoration.

[JC Urbina]

Scott,

That is a relative question.  As many know on this site no green is original.  I have been lucky enough to study the green surfaces and soil profiles  of 5 golf courses that had some greens work done.  At Pasateimpo when we expanded back the green surfaces, Dean the former super wanted to match the soil to the best of our ability.  When we cored out the section of # 10 green I got a chance to look at the profile and could pick out years and years of sand top dressing.  You could tell when sand pits were changed and also the amount of sand used during the past several years.

So at The Valley Club the green surfaces were surveyed and checked by both Roger the superintendent and myself for accuracy.  The greens were cored out to the desired depth and  I marked out the expanded surfaces based on aerial and ground photos.  They cored out the greens to the marked edges and then the subsurfaces graded  with rakes  to match the surface grade prior to coring out.

So based on what the green surfaces looked like in 2007 you would be hard pressed to tell the difference.  Although three greens were reshaped due in part to # 11 - washed out several times by floods, # 15 and 18 greens were not  original Hunter and Mackenzie surfaces.  All three greens  had been modified over the years and did not resemble the other greens,  so we tried our best to recreate these greens  so that they resembled the other 15 at The Valley Club.   I hope you couldn't tell the difference and they all appeared Original.

[mark chalfant]

Kirtland  (Alison)
St. Georges, (Thompson)
Huntington  (Emmet)

St. Georges,   (Emmet).
Shuttle Meadow  ( Willie Park Jr.)
Calclub

[Tom MacWood]

The work that Rees Jones and his crew are currently doing at Baltusrol Upper and Lower in recovering long missing Tillinghast features is also terrific. Once again bunkers are being both put back to where they opriginally were and shaped and including features as they originally were built. They are also slowly recovering the green entrances that were done away with in the past by turning them into rough frontings. The Lower will get rave reviews during the 2006 PGA.

If the aerial on Google is representative of the course at present, calling the Lower course a restored Tilly course is inaccurate, and insulting to good and accurate restorations everywhere. There has to be 50 to 60 bunkers that bear no resemblance to the bunkers Tilly built either in position or in appearance. You would have thought the least he would have done is restore the original rough look of the Hells Half Acre bunker.

[Chris_Clouser]

The work by Keith Foster at Omaha was not even close to a restoration.  It might be fine work, but to call it a restoration is just plain wrong. 

[Adam Clayman]

After reading Jim Urbina's great post, it would appear the term restoration and the term minimalism have something in common. Making it look restored is about all we could hope for. As is making it look like the land was virtually untouched, in minimalism.

[Tom Yost]

LA North x 5 for me.......

LACC jumps out to the lead with 7 votes!

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

As is usual you twist words and simply argue out of stupidity.

"If the aerial on Google is representative of the course at present, calling the Lower course a restored Tilly course is inaccurate, and insulting to good and accurate restorations everywhere. There has to be 50 to 60 bunkers that bear no resemblance to the bunkers Tilly built either in position or in appearance. You would have thought the least he would have done is restore the original rough look of the Hells Half Acre bunker..."

Go ahead Tom, show me where I stated that the course had been RESTORED and that the work has been COMPLETED!

You even QUOTED MY POSTING where I said, "The work that Rees Jones and his crew are currently doing at Baltusrol Upper and Lower in recovering long missing Tillinghast features is also terrific. Once again bunkers are being both put back to where they originally were and shaped and including features as they originally were built. They are also slowly recovering the green entrances that were done away with in the past by turning them into rough frontings. The Lower will get rave reviews during the 2016 PGA..."

Rees Jones is the same as EVERY other architect working today or in years past. They are paid to do the work they are hired to do. To make the comment, "You would have thought the least he would have done is restore the original rough look of the Hells Half Acre bunker..." shows just how little you know about and understand the process. It is not up to him to tell the cluib what it WILL DO, but rather to advise them. If THEY CHOOSE not to do something neither you nor anyone else should blame him for not doing it.

So you don't like Rees' work; that is your privilege to feel that way and even express it in print. To do so by twisting what someone else stated to the point of not only MISREPRESENTING but CHANGING WHAT THEY ACTUALLY STATED proves once again that your comments are AGENDA-driven and only seeking to argue.

I would have simply not commented but you completely MISREPRESENTED what I stated. Now you can go on and say whatever you like, but again you show yourself the fool...

[Richard Phinney]

Depending on the definition, Hawtree's work on Lahinch should probably merit consideration. 

[Doug Wright]

Ron Prichard's work at Minikahda and Wilmington (NC) Municipal are excellent. I've also heard that his work at Beverly CC is very good. All of these are Ross courses. Among other things, at Minikahda and Wilmington (NC) Municipal Prichard restored the greens to their original shapes/sizes, thereby recapturing pinnable areas, and redid the bunkering, which is now outstanding. Plus major tree removal.

[Neil Regan]

My dear Melvyn,

I do hope that you have given up the cilice.

Bob

Bob,

  You got me there. I had to look it up.
  Please tell me that it's in your working vocabulary.

Neil

[Terry Lavin]

My dear Melvyn,

I do hope that you have given up the cilice.

Bob

Bob,

  You got me there. I had to look it up.
  Please tell me that it's in your working vocabulary.

Neil

A garment worn by those religious fanatics who like to inflict a little self-punishment in the name of the Lord is a fair translation.  One that might be worn by the federal agent character in Boardwalk Empire from HBO, or maybe the albino nutjob from The DaVinci Code.

[Joe Bausch]

I really hope to be able to 'bump' this thread sometime in the next couple to several years.

[Scott Warren]

JC Urbina:

Thanks a heap for that post. really interesting. The Valley Club greens were one of the coolest I have ever seen, in large part due to the subtle but vicious slopes on the likes of 3, 6, 7 and 13 that complemented some of the more dramatic slopes on 2, 11, 15 and 18 - which seemed to have their own cool subtle areas that were made to look flat by the steep sections.

I really enjoyed the challenge of approaching and then putting on them, because there was plenty you couldn't immediately see from 100, 50 or even 25m away.

[Joel_Stewart]

Anyone notice that all except Bethpage are private or semi private golf courses?

[Matt_Ward]

Joel:

Was the efforts tied to the Black really a "restoration" in the purest sense ?

[A.G._Crockett]

My dear Melvyn,

I do hope that you have given up the cilice.

Bob

Bob,

  You got me there. I had to look it up.
  Please tell me that it's in your working vocabulary.

Neil

Same here; I learned something.  But is it a PERFECT reference.

[A.G._Crockett]

Anyone notice that all except Bethpage are private or semi private golf courses?

Wilmington Municipal (Ross restored by Prichard) is VERY public!

[Joel_Stewart]

Joel:

Was the efforts tied to the Black really a "restoration" in the purest sense ?

In the purest sense, probably not but I never played the course before the restoration. 

I know someone who believes it's the most successful restoration of any of the courses listed above and that's hard to argue. 

[Bob_Huntley]

My dear Melvyn,

I do hope that you have given up the cilice.

Bob

Bob,

  You got me there. I had to look it up.
  Please tell me that it's in your working vocabulary.

Neil

Neil,

Sixty or more years ago I had to read some Kraft- Ebbing and the word stuck with me forever; my memory was jogged by Dan Browne.

Bob

[Tom MacWood]

Anyone notice that all except Bethpage are private or semi private golf courses?

Who said anything about Bethpage Black being a restoration?

[PCCraig]

LA North x 5 for me.......

LACC jumps out to the lead with 7 votes!

How many on here have actually seen the work in person? Or is everyone just judging by the pictures?

[jkinney]

Played the restored North Course at LACC the week it opened....sensational in every way and easily the best I've ever seen as a top-to-bottom, faithful restoration. All who haven't should read the booklet on job posted on GCA.

[Ian Andrew]

How many on here have actually seen the work in person? Or is everyone just judging by the pictures?

Pat,

I've played the course before any work, seen it while under construction (walked all 18 with Gil), but have not seen the completed work.

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