Frilled Bunkers

[Norbert P]

Frilled bunkers are either loved or hated. I discern that the hatred comes partly from the popularity of the design in recent new constructions.  I also suspect that designers are using this motif to heighten their course ratings and personal marketability because of their popularity within the ranking tables.  A flux battle of design motive and player suspicion, perhaps?

  I've seen the style turn from divine deliverance to scorned copycat forgeries. One is worthy of Mecca-level reverence while others are
relegated to "dented can" reproduction commodity bunkers.

 Personally, I believe that they can be timeless in design but I have seen efforts that fall short of the ideal.

  What is great and what grates?

   What, where and why?
  

  Would Kauri Cliffs be more respected more if it had naturalistic,  jagged edge bunkers?

  Would Merion be less respected if its bunkers were amoebic?  

[Mike Nuzzo]

peanut/amoebic bunkers look characterless

I don't know if you would call the picture below lacy, frilly, whatever.

It looks great.
It has the natural vegetation on the outside.
It is easier to maintain.
It makes sense economically
It doesn't look like it was made with a cookie cutter.
The coolest heath bunkers often have simple shapes and the vegetation makes the style - not the other way around where the bunker outline makes the style and the plants are highly manicured.

[Tom_Doak]

Slag,

In most circumstances where ragged-edged bunkers would look natural, they are also subject to considerable change over time from the wind and from golfer traffic.  When we were starting work at Pacific Dunes, Dick Youngscap laughed at remembering how painstakingly Dave Axland and Dan Proctor had been at edging the bunkers at Sand Hills, when they all knew that within a couple of years all the edges would change.  He advised us not to waste so much time on the bunkers and just roll with the punches; and yet, the client wants everything to look just so on opening day, and the bunker shapers all take a great deal of pride in their craft, so it's hard to just let the shapes evolve for themselves.

I do believe Merion would be considered differently if Robert Von Hagge or Robert Muir Graves had built their style of bunkers on the site.  Indeed, I think at least half of the hullabaloo about the Fazio work at Merion was about taking the plants out of the bunkers and changing the famous white faces ... even though Hugh Wilson may never have seen a broom plant in any of those bunkers.  So, in rare circumstances, style wins.  It just gets overblown when so many different firms are competing to outdo each other in the same general style. 

[Ian Andrew]

It just gets overblown when so many different firms are competing to outdo each other in the same general style. 

It was fun and exciting when a couple of firms were showing their creativity. It became repetitive when the usual suspects needed to do their version to show their “versatility.”

I will say natural never gets old, but the natural look created out of context looks forced to me.

Where it’s great: Prairie Dunes is particularly special in my books

[Tom_Doak]

It just gets overblown when so many different firms are competing to outdo each other in the same general style. 

It was fun and exciting when a couple of firms were showing their creativity. It became repetitive when the usual suspects needed to do their version to show their “versatility.”

I will say natural never gets old, but the natural look created out of context looks forced to me.

Where it’s great: Prairie Dunes is particularly special in my books

Ian:

Is the above photo before Dave Axland, or after?

[Ian Andrew]

Tom,

I have no context on this one, since I only saw PD for the first time this year.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Actually, at one time I think most of PD's bunkers were fairly standard Maxwell, with some having the yucca.  They still worked because of the site.

Its not all or nothing - jagged edges or peanut/ameoba - Think Mac's bunker at 10 ANGC.  It may have had more jagged edges at one time, but had enough shape to survive some smoothing and still look good.  In reality, many probably find that kind of bunker the best, stylized natural approach.  There is a real art to making those puzzle piece bunkers really sing.  Most are too even to really "sing" but when the different sand lobes, capes and bays, etc. vary in size and angle, I find them more attractive than the jagged edge on "typical" golf courses, in urban areas.  With all the surrounding lawnscape, sometimes the jagged edges look forced in those situations.

[Mike Hogan]

Here are a few shots from the Kingsley Club.

[Adam Clayman]

I have a hard time uderstanding what the critics of Frilly bunkers are talking about.

Is these at Ford Ord?



Or these at Arbor Links?





The most frilliest bunkers I have seen were in an old picture of Billy Bell's work at Riviera.

Love the thread Slag.

[Sean_A]

There is a time and place for frilly bunkers.  I would even say that some archies can pull off the look better than others because they are better at it.  For instance, I think Dr Mac got it wrong with his stye of frilly here in the UK and especially on links, but everyone goes through a learning curve and he earns points for innovation.  I think a guy like Simpson learned a bit about this and built not frilly bunkers, but they often seem frilly.  Instead, Simpson made the bunkers with attractive shapes integrating the surrounding land very well.  However, the bottom line should always be the placement of the bunker and how it relates to the fairway and the rough.  WAY too much time is spent worrying about the aesthetics.  Get the depth, drainage and placement right and it is awfully difficult to bitch.     

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Adam,

Great pictures.

It is the Fort Ord bunkers which offend me.  The intricate shapes do not reflect anything else in the landscape (especially not the cart path going up the left side!), and the white on green color scheme does nothing to help them blend in.  Seems like a different style would have been better suited to the rest of what is going on there.

The Arbor Links bunkers look very good, actually, and blend well with the brown colors.  I wonder who shaped them ... We had a young man who helped work on the bunkers at Lost Dunes who was from out there, who got pretty good at bunker edging.

[Mark Chaplin]

Whilst golf isn't meant to be overly fair my objection to the Kingsley Club is 2 identical shots can finish a yard apart 10 paces from the pin and one has a simple splash and the other is virtually unplayable.

[brad_miller]

Regarding the PD picture, that is post Axland, the bunker on the left was added, you can not see the bunker in back of the green. The work done at PD over the last 7-8 years is just wonderful, bunkering, tees, mounds and closely mowed chipping areas. Tom you need to see it again given how much you love its close cousin Crystal Downs.

[Randy Thompson]

The third photo of the kinglesy club looks and feels great but its too difficult for the average golfer IMO. Its almost the same as having water in the area, where is the recuperate shot? I think torn bunkers look great in a natural setting but something close to a links setting or at least old country look. Mom lives in Florida, typical bowling ally routing with houses on both sides of the fairway. One of the two courses in the development is RTJ, Jr. design and they came back and MODERNIZED the bunkers with the forced frilled look and to me they now have dented cans. I just don´t think anybody could make that look work in that setting!

[Adam Clayman]

Thanks Tom, Although I pulled them using this site's search engine.

I was recently at SFGC and wondered what went into the shaping of those bunkers. The last time I was there was 10 years ago, so, I suspect memory fails, but, I do sense you guys (or maybe in house?) did change the edges. Did you? I think it was on #12 where I felt it the most.

[Tom_Doak]

Adam,

We have never "redone the bunkers" at SFGC as a project.

When we rebuilt the greens several years ago, we had to get into the green side bunkers and redo them.  But we weren't authorized to do the rest, so it didn't make sense to try to restore the green side bunkers to the really lacy-edged look from Billy Bell's time there, or the bunkers would have clashed.

Over time, we have restored several bunkers that were lost, and of course all the bunkers on the three holes restored to the pre-1950 routing, but there are some bunkers we still haven't done anything with ... though I suspect that Bob and his crew have re-edged the rest of them over the years to make them blend better with the newer work.

[Tom_Doak]

Regarding the PD picture, that is post Axland, the bunker on the left was added, you can not see the bunker in back of the green. The work done at PD over the last 7-8 years is just wonderful, bunkering, tees, mounds and closely mowed chipping areas. Tom you need to see it again given how much you love its close cousin Crystal Downs.

Brad,

I am sure I would like the work, since I've liked pretty much everything else I have seen Dave Axland build.  I was just pointing out to Ian that those bunkers he admired so much aren't really the model for Sand Hills -- Sand Hills was the model for them!

[Jeff_Mingay]

I think one reason why the Prairie Dunes bunkers look so good - whether they're designed by Maxwell(s) or Axland/Coore - is because the general shapes of many bunkers throughout the course are actually quite simple. It's the periperhal grasses and other plants that present a rugged, natural appearance rather than frilly and/or jagged edges.

[Peter Pallotta]

Reminds me of the story of the Greek General and his second in command who were about to lead their men into battle. The second in command suggests that they should ask the Oracle at Delphi what the outcome of the battle will be; and the General replies: "Why? If the Oracle should say that we will all be killed and the battle lost, would it change our duty to fight?".
Nature WILL take over one day, and entropy WILL prevail; but we shape things to the best of our ability anyway.
Peter

[Anthony_Nysse]

In the Fort Ord picture, are those REALLY the tee markers?

[TEPaul]

Jeff:

I think you make a very fine point there with your remarks about the PD bunkers. The Bell or Thomas or Mackenzie California style bunkers with their ultra frilly peripheries and edges (not just grass but sod) probably went a bit overboard in an "artistic" sense. I do like it a lot in some settings and I think the originally rugged, sandy, coastal setting of Cypress Point was a good setting for it. But PD is a different setting and feeling.

[Adam Clayman]

There's no doubt that the Bell bunkers that I have seen pictured take non-uniformity to an extreme. But, it's non-uniformity that is congruent in these fine examples, which creates an almost subliminal conundrum for the mind's eye, while playing.   While the Fort Ord's bunkers are a more forced frilly, on what are more uniform shapes.

[Norbert P]

I have a hard time uderstanding what the critics of Frilly bunkers are talking about.

  Which is exactly what pushed me to ask the question. I sense a turning of the tide and I am curious if people here may think the style is becoming so common that it's approaching vulgare. 

  I feel that it is the most timeless style as, if done right and in the right setting, it looks even better when they deteriate with the golfablility factored.

   We are quick to judge newly built bunkers, and that's human nature, but often we have to wait for these creations to mature to become true evidence of their fit and functionality.  Often too, I see that bunkers are built jaggedly yet are overmanicured in maintenance practice to let the style really reveal itself to the aesthetic critic.

  Would the golfing design world shift its focus if Augusta redid all their bunkers to original style?  It has already set the standard for thousands of golf clubs around America. What if it reset the standard to its old look?    (I would think it would greatly enlarge the industry for golf redesign.)       

  Great replies, gents.



  "Ya know we aint no amoeba"  Bonnie Raitt

[Matt_Ward]

Slag:

In noticing Mike Nuzzo's pic -- I have a problem when bunkers have a portion -- either from within the confines or the bunker or just outside -- that likely ensure a quick unplayable lie.

I don't like to see bunkers dressed up like formal tuxedo penguins -- but I don't want to see them become nothing more than random chance creations where the penalty can far outweigh the situation encountered.

What was done at Wine Valley is really well done and something other courses should take note of in their design formulation.

[Norbert P]

It looks great.
It has the natural vegetation on the outside.
It is easier to maintain.
It makes sense economically
It doesn't look like it was made with a cookie cutter.
The coolest heath bunkers often have simple shapes and the vegetation makes the style - not the other way around where the bunker outline makes the style and the plants are highly manicured.

  I agree with virtually everything you say but I think I'd need John Vanderborght for a ruling if my ball rested in the plantlife in the hazard. I'm just not in agreement with the species chosen for giving the natural look in a golfing environment as it would probably give an unplayable lie or lost ball.