Where is the "Ole" FL ?

[Matt_Ward]

Just returned from a quick visit to FL -- was in the border area of Dade and Broward counties and I did happen to play golf at a few of the local courses in the area.

Really disappointed.

Why ?

Forget the monumental congestion -- that was bad enough. But the golf courses were simply engulfed by mega condo complexes that are simply hideous -- I felt like I was playing golf in Manhattan with the array of 30+ story buildings that stood guard in all areas the eye could see.

The facilities were nicely landscaped but it was clear that without the landscaping the various movements off property would be even more of a distraction. I always enjoy teeing off and having an enclosed parking garage just steps away from the playing area. All the landscaping in the world can't hide that intrusive feeling you get when playing.

Years and years ago -- one could play golf in the "ole" FL and really have a decent golf experience. No doubt there are more remote areas of the state where you can enjoy that feeling -- but when you combine the intrusions with the ever so slow turf conditions because of the way bermuda plays -- you get a real sense of "what am I doing" here.

The weather was fine - and the beaches the best.

However ...

Being forced to play generic FL golf for the rest of one's life is truly for those who don't mind its clear limitations.

I am certainly not one of them.

[Bill_McBride]

Go play Mountain Lake or World Woods, avoid Turnberry like the plague.

[Gary Slatter]

why get distracted? - enjoy the game of golf, focus then wait, refocus     be thankful you can play the game! at least in Florida the ball goes the proper distance (in the air).   it's ole isn't it?

[JESII]

Sounds like a visit to Palm-Aire...

[Bill_McBride]

Sounds like a visit to Palm-Aire...

I went to a golf school there years ago.  The definition of a Doak 3.

[JESII]

Seems like what playing golf between Prison Cell Blocks would be like...but for what it's worth I didn't hate the actual golf course. They have 2 or 3 I believe and the better one wasn't too bad but certainly was never firm.

[Derek_Duncan]

SE Florida is a tough sell with the exception of a small handful of private clubs.

Someone mentioned Turnberry: Have to admit the "new" Soffer course is a bit of a guilty pleasure.

[Anthony_Nysse]

You should have come a see me. We do not have any housing throughout the property, only around it. The club invested a great deal of money to create a natural border of native plants between the golf course and the homes, hence all a golfer can see is a few rooftops from time to time.

[Matt_Ward]

I get a huge chuckle when people say that certain courses in FL can play firm -- please outline who they are in the SE corner of the state because it's hit and sit on just about most tee shots.

Combine that with the mega construction and clutter on all sides and frankly you might as well leave the clubs at home.

FL is a great state for water sports -- the golf side is merely there to grab those who want the warm weather it provides.

[Terry Lavin]

While there are plenty of courses that fit Matt's disdain for all things Florida golf, I think it's a bit unfair to lump everything into the same category.  Mr. Nysse's post is emblematic of that.  Pine Tree is in the "greater" Fort Lauderdale area (Boynton Beach) and so it surely is in the Land of Congestion.  Why is it so congested, one might inquire?  Well, let's start with great weather.  Then let's add in great restaurants.  And the proximity of the ocean.  Then there's the ease of air travel.  In short, it's so congested because there's a lot to offer.  It may not be everybody's cup of tea, but if that's the case, one can go elsewhere.

Golf-wise much of Florida offers a bleak, residential golf scenario, because that is what makes the most economic sense.  But there are dozens of great courses that are not so afflicted.  Pine Tree is a good example of this statement.  There is housing on the perimeter, but it's not in any way obtrusive or visually offensive.  And it's a TERRIFIC golf course.  I play a lot at Country Club of Orlando, which is an old-line Donald Ross design that Brian Silva buffed up.  There is housing around the course, but it's not in any way bleak as a result.  Ditto for Lake Nona, a very good Fazio course near the Orlando airport.  Sugarloaf Mountain is not the most inspired Coore & Crenshaw, but the failure of the economy has stalled any housing development, so there's still a very rural feel to it.  I've had some very enjoyable golf experiences in the Sarasota area as well.

I guess I'm agreeing with Matt to some degree, but there are still plenty of reasons to enjoy Florida golf, in my book.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt,

I am working on fixing that, and so is Bill Coore.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom:

Best of luck indeed -- you certainly will be breaking new ground if you and Coore can pull that one off.

Terry:

Thanks for the comments.

However ...

Take weather out of the equation -- how many golfers would even think of considering Florida ?

And for the courses you listed -- I have played a number of them and concur with you on Pine Tree especially.

Economic sense is indeed the underlying drivign force -- I just have to wonder from the many area professionals I spoke to how well that economic engine will be purring after all the shakeout occurs.

[Jim_Kennedy]

As sure as the passage of time, or a winter cold,  Matt has to get in his yearly rebuke of Florida golf. He always glosses over the fact that the state is 8 times larger than New Jersey and has 4 climate zones. Matt can never seem to find anything firm when he goes down to Florida. Others can find it from Sebring north to Sanford.
 

Here's a bit of "Old" Florida that closed a few years ago. It was a bit dowdy, and a throwback like Lekarica to the south. It had lost some of its old holes to a housing development, but it still offered up a peaceful and quiet round of inexpensive golf. It didn't look like much from the road so most vacationers passed it by on their way to Red Tail or Black Bear or Eagle Dunes.

 a bit of the history of Mt Plymouth Golf Club, Sorrento:

St. Andrews Course
-Captain Head, golf course architect, laid out the St. Andrews Course patterned after the famous St. Andrews links in Scotland. The 2nd course, the Gleneagle, was laid out but never finished and became part of the airfield.
-Connie Mack, Joe Tinker, Walter Hagen and Carl Dann played often during the 1930's. Carl M. Dann, National Champion of  Club Champions of America played daily. Mrs. Lea Mida captures the first honors of the Florida Women Golf Association.
-A tournament for the benefit of the Daymon Runyon Cancer Fund was held during the late 50's with such sports notables as Whitey Ford, Mickey Mantle, Dr. Middlecoft, Chi Chi Rodriguez, Kathy Whitworth and Louise Suggs participating. The tournament was sponsored by Sidney Potnasik, owner of the club, who was a founder of the Damon Runyon Fund.
-Richard Whitney, Ed and Herman Maister of General Motors often played with William Grace, retired steamship Captain F.E. Crowley, Al Schrupp and Maj. Joe Story who purchased homes near the course. W. Grace having the honor of being struck by lightning while playing.
-During World War II the Maxis who owned the course reportedly dug up the copper pipe which composed the watering system to aid the war effort, thus undoing steam fitter Jacob Shoemakers labor of love

...and a few old photos:

Unknown hole


The par 3 eighth


The opening hole

[Ben Kodadek]

As sure as the passage of time, or a winter cold,  Matt has to get in his yearly rebuke of Florida golf. He always glosses over the fact that the state is 8 times larger than New Jersey and has 4 climate zones. Matt can never seem to find anything firm when he goes down to Florida. Others can find it from Sebring north to Sanford.

Well put Jim.

Matt, after you blast FL for never being firm, how can you possibly recommend OCN to Martin Toal in "Orlando Golf Suggestions?"  It's the epitome of green on green overseed....

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

Muzzle the loud bark for a minute.

I have outlined a number of courses that have some real muscle in terms of design heft. See Ocean Hammock -- Southern Dunes, etc, etc, etc.

I just find it hard to swallow -- maybe for you it's fine and dandy -- but golf in FL, for the overwhelming number of courses there, is simple fill in the blanks type stuff. Nothing more than that.

I can only speak for me -- but I hope that future designs -- whether it be from Doak, C&C or whoever else, can try to do something that falls outside the predictable and lame.

Ben:

I never said Orange County was spectacular stuff but it did offer something decent -- close to Orlando as Martin wanted to know -- and the practice facility there is quite good.

Hope my additional info response helps your misunderstanding.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Matt,

I’m 'barking' in response to your yapping. Everyone knows your disdain for Florida golf, this last topic is probably somewhere between the umpteenth and endless number of times you’ve made the same point.

There are ca.16,000 golf courses in the U.S. There are a handful of tens, a few more nines, eights and sevens, and an ever increasing number of sixes on down to ones. There isn’t a state in the union that isn’t overpopulated with fair, mediocre, or poor golf courses when compared to the top few hundred courses in the nation.

Florida isn’t much different than anyplace else, except that nearly 10% of all the golfing product in the US is located there.

[JMEvensky]

Take weather out of the equation -- how many golfers would even think of considering Florida ?

That's a pretty big part of the equation to take out,isn't it?

[Matt_Ward]

JMEvensky:

Sure is -- frankly for many people they love it. In my mind, they should knock themselves out and enjoy whatever it does for them.

Jim:

Simple deal -- instead of pissing and moaning about what I write -- the easiest thing to do is ignore it if it bothers you that much.

People routinely post on this site about the same topics time after time and how they feel about such things -- see the discussion of Bandon, NGLA, ANGC, etc, etc. If you want to be the censor police and maintain a consistency with such a self-appointed badge -- please do likewise for others.

For all the $$ that FL makes -- the masses -- all fat and happy and likely unable to see too far beyond the most immediate of steps they take.

Hey Jim, let me break the news to you -- tons of others see it the same way -- as well as Doak too. I'm just hopeful he's able to do something that's far from the usual slob that calls itself golf. One small correction -- for all the golf FL does have -- there is very little -- and I mean very little that is really "must" play golf from the ones I have played in the nation. If you see it differently so be it.
 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Hey Matt,
It's not censorship pardner, I didn't tell you to stop posting or change your opinion, so please continue.

[JR Potts]

Call me crazy but I like Steve Smyers' work at Isleworth.  It's a truly unique experience and is a fun test of golf.  I too enjoy Lake Nona.  Seminole isn't too shabby and neither is Calusa or Old Collier.

[Adam Clayman]

Typical Florid golf is perfect for the cliental they have. Elderly couples looking for a way to spend the day, outdoors. Not for the heavy lifters looking for the best golf in the nation.

Matt, I'm curious...If golf in Florida is such a known entity, why go back? Did you pay a green fee?

[Ted Cahill]

Matt- my wife and I love to visit the Miami area and do so once or twice a year. After numerous failed attempts to play exciting golf in the area ( Doral is the most overrated, overpriced resort I have ever been to) I have changed my expectations and found a sort of "home" course. Granada Golf Couse is a humble 9 hole muni smack in the middle of a pleasant Coral Gables neighborhood. It's walking friendly, a bargain and shares the neighborhood nicely with it's residents. The mangrove trees that line a couple of holes feel like something out of Jurassic Park. Has anyone else here played Granada?  Any fans?

[John_Conley]

Matt started this thread for the benefit of those not registered last time he voiced his disdain for golf in Florida.  I'll give him credit.  Last time it was a broad brush that concluded "Florida golf sucks" after a visit to populated South Florida.

[Tim Martin]

Delray Municipal is a Donald Ross design with extremely low rates-a winner.

[Bill_McBride]

Matt- my wife and I love to visit the Miami area and do so once or twice a year. After numerous failed attempts to play exciting golf in the area ( Doral is the most overrated, overpriced resort I have ever been to) I have changed my expectations and found a sort of "home" course. Granada Golf Couse is a humble 9 hole muni smack in the middle of a pleasant Coral Gables neighborhood. It's walking friendly, a bargain and shares the neighborhood nicely with it's residents. The mangrove trees that line a couple of holes feel like something out of Jurassic Park. Has anyone else here played Granada?  Any fans?

Played it?  Hell, I've never heard of it!