[Bill_Yates]

Should the permitting process go well, the remodel would begin in 2012, taking about nine months to complete.  Apparently, the reasons for the update are to install a new irrigation system, sand cap the entire layout, build new green complexes, reduce the irrigated turf profile, give Poppy Hills "...a more natural look, much like Pine Valley...", extend the playing length from 6,800 to 7,000 yards and reduce par from 72 to 71 strokes.  The remodel will be undertaken by Robert Trent Jones, Jr.

The announcement appeared in today's Monterey Herald  http://www.montereyherald.com/exclusive/ci_16622329?nclick_check=1

Any thoughts or comments?

[Jeff Doerr]

I think RTJ2 will do a nice job at Poppy Hills. The course does have some merit and I think RTJ2 and the firm have grown a lot since PH was designed. Could be a nice new one on the landscape and a win again for the NCGA.

[Forrest Richardson]

I am not certain if it was Pittsburgh, Santa Barbara or Hilton Head — but I distinctly recall have more than one drink with Bobby and mentioning that my only recorded 5-putt — lifetime — was on the 18th at Poppy Hills. I hope this is among the greens to be blow-up. Way up.   

[Bill_Yates]

Jeff,
I agree. I think they'll do a great job. 

I choked a bit when I saw the original Pine Valley reference, but with RTJ2's recent designs taking a more minimalist turn, combining waste bunkers and the Del Monte pine forest could very well provide the player with a Pine Valley-like atmosphere.

[Ted Cahill]

As a NCGA member, this is a pretty exciting development.  In Northern California we are clearly blessed with a collection of wonderful courses, but we don't often get anything "new" to look forward to.  The Fort Ord remodel was wonderful.  Let's hope PH is as sucessful. 

[JohnV]

The RTJ 2 people have been great to work with so far.  They came to the NCGA and presented their plans in August.  We gave them a lot of feedback that they took back and reworked a number of items.  The new plans look great.

I'm not going to say too much specific about them since there is no way of knowing what will get approved and what won't.

The biggest changes will be below ground where a new irrigation system will be installed and the fairways will be sand-capped which should do a lot for the drainage issues.

The plan is remove some of the buried elephants from the fairways and make them fit the natural slopes more (think of #1).

Our superintendent told them he wanted 7 hole locations.  We have so many tournaments we need lots of options.  A few of the greens don't have anywhere near that today, including the 18th.  The greens should be larger and have more gradual slopes, but still be interesting.

[David Stamm]

I am not certain if it was Pittsburgh, Santa Barbara or Hilton Head — but I distinctly recall have more than one drink with Bobby and mentioning that my only recorded 5-putt — lifetime — was on the 18th at Poppy Hills. I hope this is among the greens to be blow-up. Way up.   

+1, Forrest. I four putted from 6 feet away on that green. Jones has a great opportunity to make Poppy so much better. Not that it was that bad before (I've always had fun on it), but the property is conducive to a much more memorable experience. I think Jones is a better architect now then he was when he first did Poppy, so I think he will make it a better course then it was before. Then again, I could be wrong.

[Kevin_Reilly]

I agree this is good news.  John, was there an RFP for this or did the Association decide to award the work to RTJ Jr without a bakeoff?

[Mike Benham]

Not to sound like a broken record or an old fuddy duddy but ...


Why?



What does the NCGA expect to gain from this change (other then more hole locations)? 

The course doesn't need to be lengthened for 99% of the membership, is there an eye to have the PGA Tour come knocking again?

Do they expect more play or be able to charge higher green fees with the completion of this work?

Would spending the money on improving the playability of Poppy Ridge provide a better return on their investment?  Poppy Ridge is considerably more centric to a majority of the membership base ...

"A more natural look, much like Pine Valley", I guess that will pair nicely with Poppy Ridge, it's Scottish Heathland cousin ...

Membership down, renewals down, rounds played down, I guess the association is sitting on a lot more cash then one would guess.

[Kris Shreiner]

John,
Thanks for the update!

Ted,
You're scaring me with the "Ft. Ord remodel was wonderful" line. I'm hoping you're kidding. What pray tell, did you find wonderful there? The re-done green complexs are disappointing. Very few realistic, pinnable areas on many greens , internal contours far to radical for the smallish sizes of most of the greens, tour quality shotmaking required, with helium-aided, gentle descents, to hold many of those greens coming in from distance, a nauseating sameness to the bunker shapes...OK, I'll stop with an affirmative nod to some much-needed tree removal. The old presentation, while penal and scruffy, will always be how I remember The NET at its best! The new, interior homesites also cheapen the setting, that in prior times was impressive and had a primitive beauty to it . Oh well, the price of progress. I'll take a stroll around Laguna Seca and play some of the other local gems instead these days.


A natural, Pine Valley look...the place will about have to be blown up to achieve that. Sounds like a lot of work will go into that effort. Here's hoping a new star emerges from the metamorphosis inThe Forest!

Cheers,
Kris

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

This is exciting news. I also think they will do a great job. cheers to NCGA

[Jim Nugent]

One hole at Poppy Hills (5?) was among the toughest par 4s on tour each year.  Are they changing that hole?

Like Mike Benham, I'm interested to know why they are making all these changes. 

[Ted Cahill]

John,
Thanks for the update!

Ted,
You're scaring me with the "Ft. Ord remodel was wonderful" line. I'm hoping you're kidding. What pray tell, did you find wonderful there? The re-done green complexs are disappointing. Very few realistic, pinnable areas on many greens , internal contours far to radical for the smallish sizes of most of the greens, tour quality shotmaking required, with helium-aided, gentle descents, to hold many of those greens coming in from distance, a nauseating sameness to the bunker shapes...OK, I'll stop with an affirmative nod to some much-needed tree removal. The old presentation, while penal and scruffy, will always be how I remember The NET at its best! The new, interior homesites also cheapen the setting, that in prior times was impressive and had a primitive beauty to it . Oh well, the price of progress. I'll take a stroll around Laguna Seca and play some of the other local gems instead these days.

Kris- you sound like you were a regular at Bayonet. I'm coming from a perspective of someone who plays there once or twice a year. I found the tree thinning and improved turf conditions to be a huge plus. The new driving range is a big improvement over the previous astro turf eyesore range. Bayonet always required your best shot making skills. But hey, each their own.


A natural, Pine Valley look...the place will about have to be blown up to achieve that. Sounds like a lot of work will go into that effort. Here's hoping a new star emerges from the metamorphosis inThe Forest!

Cheers,
Kris

[Matt_Cohn]

I would guess they're making the changes in recognition that the course isn't remotely as good as it ought to be, given its setting. I think they also realize that there is significant revenue potential if the course were viewed as "great" rather than as a "nice, less expensive alternative" to the other courses in the area.

What percentage of their rounds are at member rates versus "regular" rates?

I would guess that the math on these kinds of projects works out differently inside of 17 Mile Drive than it does at most other places in the country.

Given that I hope to play many tournaments at Poppy Hills in the future, I'm very excited to hear this.


PS: Are they going from 72 to 71 by flipping around the 11th hole to make 12 a par-4? That would give the course 5 par threes that all play within 30° of the same compass orientation. Just wondering.

[Pete Lavallee]

This is exciting news. I also think they will do a great job. cheers to NCGA

Why didn't they do a "great job" the first timne around?

[Lou_Duran]

You mean this thing hasn't been done yet?  Or is this another one of those shovel ready jobs?

It has got to be a positive thing, though I have to ask the same question as Pete, and wonder why, if they didn't, consider some of the young guns to redo the course.

[Pete Lavallee]

Is the reason that the RTJ II firm is doing better work these days because RTJ is staying home? Surely most of the credit for Chambers Bay and their new course in Ok. the Patriot, must go to Jay Blassi, no?

[Kris Shreiner]

Ted,

Thanks for your thoughts. The range upgrade was a huge plus and I concur with the better turf. I just wished they not gone so heavy on the remainder of the multilation. That's what we have memories for, I guess.

[Adam Clayman]

I  played Poppy Hills this week. I was impressed with the firmness throughout. I suspect that that desired firmness will be one of the benefits of capping the entire course. Fixing the drainage issues that have plagued this course since it's inception.

One of the interesting dynamics at PH is how the course penalizes aggressive play. Pulling out your driver on every hole is ill advised if you are a big hitter. So, lengthening the course could be good, if you view lengthening as a defense against the best players. Or is it?

I played with a 15 year old young man, who tripled the first hole, pared almost all but the remainder on the front nine, (One birdie) and made 5 or 6 birdies on the back nine. (one bogie)  His goal is to make it on tour someday. Forgoing college to do so.

The course played shorter than I remembered, either due to my prolific length (joke) or the firmness.

I'd like to see the views opened up quite a bit more. Views of the ocean would be nice, especially coming down the stretch. 14 15 and 17.

Pasatiempo, is another fine example where opening up views, uncovered a masterpiece and improved turf quality.

[Bill_Yates]

Having never been to Pine Valley, please tell me; how do the elevation changes compare between PV and PH?

I know you can't replicate PV, but is there any chance that following the remodel the two courses could have a similar feel?

[Joel_Stewart]

Personally I think it's a poor waste of NCGA money to do this.  There a lot of other courses in Northern California that could use the money to improve their courses. 

Does anyone know if Jones is waiving his fee to fix what he originally built?

[Bob_Huntley]

Not to sound like a broken record or an old fuddy duddy but ...


Why?

The course doesn't need to be lengthened for 99% of the membership, is there an eye to have the PGA Tour come knocking again?

Anyone at NCGA thinking of getting the Tour back there is delusional. Although the Board at MPCC made mention that the A.T&T. National Pro-Am held in 2010 was purely a feeler for one year, one could feel the nudge and see the wink,wink; I would hazard a guess that the Tourney becomes a permanent fixture.

Bob

[Jim Jackson]

This is not RTJ II's first effort at remodeling the course; many may remember the double green 2nd that was changed to a large, single green complex a couple of years ago.  My understanding is that this was done for ease of maintenance and encourage speedier play, not for design aesthetic.

[Jon Spaulding]

This is not RTJ II's first effort at remodeling the course; many may remember the double green 2nd that was changed to a large, single green complex a couple of years ago.  My understanding is that this was done for ease of maintenance and encourage speedier play, not for design aesthetic.

I believe there was a fair amount of rework in the mid-late 80's after the course opened.

The place has never really bothered me, considering the rate to play there.

As usual, Octo's questions are valid, and the Poppy Ridge theory makes good sense.

[Adam Clayman]

This course has been tweaked a lot over the years. #9 might be the most altered. Another recent change (last ten years) was the removal of a rather well placed bunker on 14. There use to be two bunkers, one guarding the corner of the dog leg, and one, more center line. Together they worked fairly well, but that was before the I&B improvements. Now there's just the single center line bunker.

Spaulding, What P Ridge theory?

The NCGA is a great organization. If they have the funds, why not try and improve their home course? While RTJ may not be the cutting edge gca the majority here would select, you do have to give the NCGA credit for not picking someone new. Giving the original designer an opportunity to fix any perceived problems. How many courses have multiple personality disorder from having too many cooks in the kitchen? (so to speak)

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