Firm Greens and Wet Approaches?

[Brian Marion]

Got in several rounds with friends this past weekend and one course in particular had us perplexed.

Ballantyne's resort course had fast greens that were ROCK HARD but yet the dormant bermuda fairways and more importantly, the approaches to the greens, were wet and soft.

If a high short iron or wedge won't hold and you can't run a shot in, what's a golfer to do??

Note: our area (Charlotte) is dry so no rain in quite a while.

[Kyle Harris]

Got in several rounds with friends this past weekend and one course in particular had us perplexed.

Ballantyne's resort course had fast greens that were ROCK HARD but yet the dormant bermuda fairways and more importantly, the approaches to the greens, were wet and soft.

If a high short iron or wedge won't hold and you can't run a shot in, what's a golfer to do??

Note: our area (Charlotte) is dry so no rain in quite a while.

Were they recently overseeded with Ryegrass?

What's the green construction?

[Brian Marion]

No overseed, bent grass.

We found it odd as firm greens are really not unusual this time of year but the combination was. Sort of like they left the sprinklers on and turned off the lights....

[Jeff_Brauer]

One common problem on courses with part to part sprinklers around the green is that there are actually four heads watering the approach, when only two are watering the front of the green and almost everywhere else.  Worse yet, they stop a few seconds before turning back if they are part circle heads, adding more water.

One quick fix is to adjust those sprinklers past 90 degrees, so at least they don't stop a few seconds in the approach areas, adding more water out in the rough somewhere.

Of course, this is just a guess, never having seen the course.

[Pete_Pittock]

I've always thought that it was a matter of misdirected drainage, especially wth a raised green.

[Tom_Doak]

Pete,

That might sometimes explain wet approaches in a rainy season, but you never irrigate enough to cause runoff.

Jeffs answer is probably right on.  But, this is the fundamental problem to the "solution" of building USGA greens in areas with poor soils ... It solves the greens but not the approaches and surrounds which are much heavier soils and probably getting too much irrigation.

[Carl Johnson]

Got in several rounds with friends this past weekend and one course in particular had us perplexed.

Ballantyne's resort course had fast greens that were ROCK HARD but yet the dormant bermuda fairways and more importantly, the approaches to the greens, were wet and soft.

If a high short iron or wedge won't hold and you can't run a shot in, what's a golfer to do??

Note: our area (Charlotte) is dry so no rain in quite a while.

Were they recently overseeded with Ryegrass?

What's the green construction?

The fairways are Bermuda, now entering dormancy, and the greens are one of the new Bermuda or Bermuda-type hybrids, such as Mini Verdi.  I am not into grass, so I don't recall for sure and the course website does not give details about the grass on the fairways or greens.  Until recently the greens were bent, but in the past year or so they were done over with one of the newer Bermuda-type hybrids, apparently making their way further north.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pete,

After recognizing this as a problem, I started designing greens with more drainage off to one side than out the front.  It seems to help and I notice greens with more drainage out the front tend to stay wetter.  As the kids would say, "well, duh!"

[Bill_McBride]

Pete,

After recognizing this as a problem, I started designing greens with more drainage off to one side than out the front.  It seems to help and I notice greens with more drainage out the front tend to stay wetter.  As the kids would say, "well, duh!"

We have a couple of greens that stay too soggy out in front and recently installed some French drains that we hope will firm up those areas.

[Colin Macqueen]

Tom Doak saids..."But, this is the fundamental problem to the "solution" of building USGA greens in areas with poor soils ... ". 

Do golf course architects/designers build any greens that do not have a USGA specified profile. Are there situations where a USGA green profile is deemed unnecessary?

Colin

[Mike Nuzzo]

Colin
Of course!

Brian
The course could also water less if it chose by hand watering the dry spots.
A super & irr tech are always going to be better than some rotors no matter where they are pointed.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Hate to break up the architect group meeting here but unless its really bad design (like a hole or hollow in front of the green) or really bad irrigation design (like they started the head layout from the tee and worked toward the green instead of green - tee) this is an issue for your super to fix. Sometimes you do have to add a few french drains, sometimes you need to do some cultural practices like aerification to alleviate compaction and thatch removal to help dry things out. And yes sometimes its as simple as adjusting some heads.

Tom Doak is right about USGA greens being built in a clay bathtub, but adjusting irrigation precip is not that hard. You can still do a deep infrequent on the green and light frequent on the clay. And you can always add smile drains (in this sand/clay case it's architect malpractice if they weren't installed during construction) in green run on and run off areas.

[Jon Wiggett]

Don,

you are correct in theory but I have yet to see an irrigation system with the accuracy required to irrigat only the USGA root zone without touching the surrounding area. Also the will always be a certain amount of leaching. As you correctly point out, the super can improve the situation though aeration, etc. But it would be better if the both green and surrounds had similar drainage qualities from the beginning.

Jon

[Jeff_Brauer]

Sand capping the frontal approach and chipping areas has become a lot more common recently.  Next, it will be USGA fairways (and even that has already started to happen)

I disagree with Don a bit here.  I believe it is my responsibility to minimize those kinds of problems via design, and it should also be the irrigation consultants responsbility to do so as far as practical.  It costs the same to build a green that splits drainage well as one that splits it poorly, and may cost way more annually to maintain or provide additional construction later.

While its not a sexy design subject for those here, it is most certainly part of the responsibility and charge of the gca, even if we cannot possibly eliminate all maintenance problems, and some courses should favor design over ease of maintenance, while others should not.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Jeff,
I too think you should do all you can to minimize the problem during the design phase. But, I thought we were talking about a real problem on a real course that has already been built. If that is the case, then it's a supt. issue to deal with, not an architect's, all IMO of course.

It's not a quick fix, nor should the course blow it all up and install USGA approaches. Like most maintenance issues, its an ongoing battle that a hard working supt can win most of the time. That was my point.

[Brian Marion]

Got in several rounds with friends this past weekend and one course in particular had us perplexed.

Ballantyne's resort course had fast greens that were ROCK HARD but yet the dormant bermuda fairways and more importantly, the approaches to the greens, were wet and soft.

If a high short iron or wedge won't hold and you can't run a shot in, what's a golfer to do??

Note: our area (Charlotte) is dry so no rain in quite a while.

Were they recently overseeded with Ryegrass?

What's the green construction?

The fairways are Bermuda, now entering dormancy, and the greens are one of the new Bermuda or Bermuda-type hybrids, such as Mini Verdi.  I am not into grass, so I don't recall for sure and the course website does not give details about the grass on the fairways or greens.  Until recently the greens were bent, but in the past year or so they were done over with one of the newer Bermuda-type hybrids, apparently making their way further north.

Well, I have to say, sounding like a complete goof, I wondered if they hadn't redone the greens as they were "different".

Different than Mini-Verdi I have putted all summer or Champions that I have played on and different than bent than I am used to and grew up on. I "defaulted" back to them being bent as I hadn't heard they had changed them. Though it would make sense as so many courses lost their bent greens this summer.

So, ok, firm greens=new greens. Got it.

(though I still dislike the firm green/wet approach we get in most of NC this time of year)   

[Carl Rogers]

Pete,

That might sometimes explain wet approaches in a rainy season, but you never irrigate enough to cause runoff.

Jeffs answer is probably right on.  But, this is the fundamental problem to the "solution" of building USGA greens in areas with poor soils ... It solves the greens but not the approaches and surrounds which are much heavier soils and probably getting too much irrigation.

Riverfront has this problem much of the year.  When the greens run away from the direction of play, front pin positions are (for me) very problematic.

[Norbert P]

  A customer review copied from the web . . .   (I cannot vouch for its accuracy)

  "Ballantyne is a resort, mixed use community, and golf course on the south side of Charlotte, outside of I-485. The course 6735 yards, 133 slope from the tips. There's also a private club here designed by Rees Jones, but not open to public play. The course is one of the most expensive and possibly overrated courses in Charlotte, and was designed without a golf course architect. The developer and Land Design worked with a committee of golfers and residents to design the course. The result is a good solid course, Somewhat forgiving off the tee, the greens and the approach to them are the real challenge. They are on the small side, contoured and undulating, and fast, well guarded by bunkers. A fun course, interesting, and challenging, excellent service, but just on the expensive side."     (Bold emphasis added)

  Being a fan of bump and run, the wet approach issue makes the course disfunctional and my money would not return. Perhaps the experience and foresight of an architect should have been sought.   

[Brian Marion]

  A customer review copied from the web . . .   (I cannot vouch for its accuracy)

  "Ballantyne is a resort, mixed use community, and golf course on the south side of Charlotte, outside of I-485. The course 6735 yards, 133 slope from the tips. There's also a private club here designed by Rees Jones, but not open to public play. The course is one of the most expensive and possibly overrated courses in Charlotte, and was designed without a golf course architect. The developer and Land Design worked with a committee of golfers and residents to design the course. The result is a good solid course, Somewhat forgiving off the tee, the greens and the approach to them are the real challenge. They are on the small side, contoured and undulating, and fast, well guarded by bunkers. A fun course, interesting, and challenging, excellent service, but just on the expensive side."     (Bold emphasis added)

  Being a fan of bump and run, the wet approach issue makes the course disfunctional and my money would not return. Perhaps the experience and foresight of an architect should have been sought.   

I would agree with the notes above, however, this course is used mostly for quests and corporate outings and as such, is perfect for those uses.

Soggy approaches are nothing new here in NC druing the summer as run off from keeping bent greens alive is usually the culprit. Most do dry out during fall though. Not sure the reason here, could be the greens and recent maintenance could be something else. Whatever the reason, it's a solid course that, while not spectacular, is worth playing if you're in the area.

[Carl Johnson]

  A customer review copied from the web . . .   (I cannot vouch for its accuracy)

  "Ballantyne is a resort, mixed use community, and golf course . . . .The developer and Land Design worked with a committee of golfers and residents to design the course. The result is a good solid course, Somewhat forgiving off the tee, the greens and the approach to them are the real challenge. They are on the small side, contoured and undulating, and fast, well guarded by bunkers. A fun course, interesting, and challenging, excellent service, but just on the expensive side."

To learn more about the developer/designer, Mr. Johnny Harris, google Johnny Harris Charlotte NC.

[Greg Holland]

Well, I have to say, sounding like a complete goof, I wondered if they hadn't redone the greens as they were "different".

Different than Mini-Verdi I have putted all summer or Champions that I have played on and different than bent than I am used to and grew up on. I "defaulted" back to them being bent as I hadn't heard they had changed them. Though it would make sense as so many courses lost their bent greens this summer.

So, ok, firm greens=new greens. Got it.

(though I still dislike the firm green/wet approach we get in most of NC this time of year)   

[/quote]
I played there in September, and had a five minute discussion with the head pro about their greens.  He said they were ultradwarf bermuda, Champions bermuda if I recall correctly, and firm and fast (at least 11).  He pointed out the 3 or so greens where it was imperative to be below the hole.  He also talked about other courses in the area that had made the switch.  Such conversions will likely be a hot topic for many courses in this area over the next few years, given how difficult this summer was with bent greens. 

There were a few holes that did have soft approaches, but it was still pretty hot back then.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Don,
No argument there. As one experienced superintendent I know is prone to say "As a superintendent, you don't add drainage to a course every year.....just the years you work there.  And, if you don't add drainage, you won't work there many years."

[Mike Nuzzo]

It doesn't look as bad from above as I was imagining.
But I have never seen so many bunkers short right protecting the greens.

[Brian Marion]

Well, I have to say, sounding like a complete goof, I wondered if they hadn't redone the greens as they were "different".

Different than Mini-Verdi I have putted all summer or Champions that I have played on and different than bent than I am used to and grew up on. I "defaulted" back to them being bent as I hadn't heard they had changed them. Though it would make sense as so many courses lost their bent greens this summer.

So, ok, firm greens=new greens. Got it.

(though I still dislike the firm green/wet approach we get in most of NC this time of year)   

I played there in September, and had a five minute discussion with the head pro about their greens.  He said they were ultradwarf bermuda, Champions bermuda if I recall correctly, and firm and fast (at least 11).  He pointed out the 3 or so greens where it was imperative to be below the hole.  He also talked about other courses in the area that had made the switch.  Such conversions will likely be a hot topic for many courses in this area over the next few years, given how difficult this summer was with bent greens. 

There were a few holes that did have soft approaches, but it was still pretty hot back then.
[/quote]


Champions.......hmmmmmmm.

Again, when you can't tell bermuda from bent,,,,,,that's bad..      LOL!

[Travis Dewire]

Hit a fade!!!!!!!!!

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