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John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Constructing nondiscriminatory barriers
« on: November 15, 2010, 11:48:34 AM »
"Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded." Yogi Berra

Few things bring me down off the enjoyment of a round of golf more than pulling into the parking lot and finding it full.  Outside of inflated prices and/or dead greens what are methods that golf courses can use to limit play?

My personal favorites are extreme remoteness and/or poor weather.

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Constructing nondiscriminatory barriers
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2010, 11:54:25 AM »
Put up a sign that says "John Kavanaugh plays here".
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Phil McDade

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Re: Constructing nondiscriminatory barriers
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2010, 12:01:53 PM »
John:

I've always thought price inflation -- primarily over-priced courses with marginal architectural merit -- is a draw. Maybe not to this crowd, but there is a certain belief out there that price = quality, and -- more pertinent to this question -- low prices must = marginal quality. I know of a well-designed course -- more interesting than most of what you can find in the Madison WI area --not too far from here that charges @ $20 for all-day weekend play, and some folks refuse to consider going, thinking anything that costs that little can't have any merit. The course is rarely crowded, during my several years' experience of playing it.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Constructing nondiscriminatory barriers
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2010, 12:05:30 PM »
Charlie, too funny! ;D ;D ;D

JK, it won't survive if any more play is limitted.  I'll put up with a full tee time sheet anytime, over empty course;, not because I don't love the somewhat rare quietude and exclusively having a course basically to myself and playing companions ( as we all probably like in some instances) but because I love the idea of the game and its enterprises surviving more.  I'll also take the raucous and full 19th hole over a dead bar and grille.  ::) ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Constructing nondiscriminatory barriers
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2010, 12:06:17 PM »
Phil,

That is why I did not mention dead fairways.  Dead fairways can be very tricky if it leads to cart path only conditions.  Now dry dead empty fairways can be a perfect situation.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Constructing nondiscriminatory barriers
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2010, 12:16:13 PM »
Charlie, too funny! ;D ;D ;D

JK, it won't survive if any more play is limitted.  I'll put up with a full tee time sheet anytime, over empty course;, not because I don't love the somewhat rare quietude and exclusively having a course basically to myself and playing companions ( as we all probably like in some instances) but because I love the idea of the game and its enterprises surviving more.  I'll also take the raucous and full 19th hole over a dead bar and grille.  ::) ;D

For golf to survive it must first be enjoyed.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Constructing nondiscriminatory barriers
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2010, 12:22:44 PM »
... enjoyed by the many, it seems to me.

KBM, I think it will survive; 'for its life' ?  ;) 8)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Constructing nondiscriminatory barriers
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2010, 12:26:01 PM »
My suggestion: 20 or 30 minute tee time intervals.


"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Constructing nondiscriminatory barriers
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2010, 12:27:00 PM »
John, I am like you in that I enjoy the feeling of the deserted course. I like being able to play however I want and go wherever I want. When I was a kid working at a resort course, I would wait until the last carts came in off 18 (which was usually about 745 or 8) wash them up, park them, and then go out and play nine in about 45 minutes on an empty course. That last 45 minutes before dark was generally the highlight of my day.

However, if that resort course had been a stand-alone operation rather than an amenity for guests, it wouldn't have long survived. So while I prefer having the run of the place, I doubt that is a situation which can sustain itself.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Constructing nondiscriminatory barriers
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2010, 12:33:22 PM »
You know, that gives me an idea to accomplish what you wish John.

Every course must be subsidized by an outside source. In order for this model to result in enough empty courses though we'd still need to build about 10,000 more courses, but they'd all have to be munis or resorts or the like.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Constructing nondiscriminatory barriers
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2010, 12:42:43 PM »
You know, that gives me an idea to accomplish what you wish John.

Every course must be subsidized by an outside source. In order for this model to result in enough empty courses though we'd still need to build about 10,000 more courses, but they'd all have to be munis or resorts or the like.

It would be cheaper to redefine who is a golfer, but that quickly becomes discriminatory.  I prefer that people who should not play make that choice themselves.

Scott Stearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Constructing nondiscriminatory barriers
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2010, 12:51:31 PM »
expand the parking lot

Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Constructing nondiscriminatory barriers
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2010, 06:50:08 PM »
Walking Only (without a Doctor's note to keep it from being discriminatory) either that or a cart fee that equals the greens fee.

There's othing better than a turf museum, unless you own it.
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Peter Pallotta

Re: Constructing nondiscriminatory barriers
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2010, 08:41:27 PM »
The first item on the lunch menu is "Funny Tasting Shrimp".  The weekend special is  "Two-for-One Vegetarian Burgers".

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Constructing nondiscriminatory barriers
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2010, 10:01:47 AM »
Walking Only (without a Doctor's note to keep it from being discriminatory) either that or a cart fee that equals the greens fee.

There's othing better than a turf museum, unless you own it.

Of all the courses that made me scratch my head over the years Red Stick in Vero Beach gave me the worst case of flee bitus.  My Dad retires to Vero where the average age is a heart beat below dead and right in the middle of the place is a walking only course.  Good for them.

At one point I felt that walking only and poor weather made Bandon the perfect winter retreat.  Sadly upon my last departure I ran into an obese blue tooth wearing douche doing an unbuckled shirt tuck just outside the pro shop.  Good for him.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Constructing nondiscriminatory barriers
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2010, 10:15:18 AM »
John, your premise has the makings of a great script for Twilight Zone.  A sullen low handicapper arrives at an incredible golf course and to his delight he finds the place to himself, including fantastic accomodations including complimentary Michelob Ultra.  After two 2.5 hour rounds, both in the low seventies, he joins the club and pays the steep iniation fee since he's flush from federal stimulus contracts.  In fact he's so enthused he drops his other membership(s), and in consideration of his good fortune vows to never play another golf course in his life.  Regrettably on his very next trip to his new club the place is again deserted.   After a quick round, this time a smooth 68, he begins to itch for a money game, only to discover that no one else ever plays there.  Ever. 

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Constructing nondiscriminatory barriers
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2010, 10:22:17 AM »
John, your premise has the makings of a great script for Twilight Zone.  A sullen low handicapper arrives at an incredible golf course and to his delight he finds the place to himself, including fantastic accomodations including complimentary Michelob Ultra.  After two 2.5 hour rounds, both in the low seventies, he joins the club and pays the steep iniation fee since he's flush from federal stimulus contracts.  In fact he's so enthused he drops his other membership(s), and in consideration of his good fortune vows to never play another golf course in his life.  Regrettably on his very next trip to his new club the place is again deserted.   After a quick round, this time a smooth 68, he begins to itch for a money game, only to discover that no one else ever plays there.  Ever. 

Bogey

Mike,

That episode is called "A Nice Place to Visit". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Nice_Place_to_Visit

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Constructing nondiscriminatory barriers
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2010, 10:47:36 AM »
I had one owner purposely downsize the parking lot, not only to save money, but to create an image that his course was very popular and hard to get a tee time, thus hopefully creating more demand to get one.  Not sure if it was the parking lot, my design, its location, the price/value, or a combination of all of the above, but the course is usually the busiest in the DFW area.  In fact, its the only one of my courses I don't regularly play because its just too damn crowded for me to enjoy myself, despite thinking its one of my better designs.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Constructing nondiscriminatory barriers
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2010, 11:31:05 AM »
Phil McDade's post contains my 'battle plan' for golfing on my day off, find a good course that is somewhat overlooked and go there.  

To paraphrase Willie Keeler, "Play 'em where they ain't".



  
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Dave McCollum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Constructing nondiscriminatory barriers
« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2010, 12:39:42 PM »
When I lived in LA I didn’t play golf other than the occasional round on always crowded courses.  Now that I live in the sticks, I don’t really have a feel for crowded courses or the novel suggestions in this thread:
 
•   Remoteness and poor weather
•   20-30 minute tee times intervals
•   Raise your prices
•   Subsidize courses and build 10,000 more
•   Walking only or make the cart fee=green fee
•   Food poisoning

It seems that JK answered his own question with his favorite remedies.  In my experience, however, weather is far and away the main factor for whether or not a course is crowded.  Right now here at this public course, its 45 degrees F (not too bad) and the wind is blowing 35mph with gusts to 50.  There are 2 cars in the parking lot and those guys are probably in the pro shop drinking coffee and telling the pro war stories.  Just pick a crappy day and you’ll have the place to yourself.

…Hold on, I just looked out the window.  Those 2 guys are going out.  Regulars who play every weekday in all seasons/conditions.  And we thought we were golf nuts sitting here pecking at our keyboards.

J Sadowsky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Constructing nondiscriminatory barriers
« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2010, 12:59:58 PM »
Not a lot of business majors in this bunch, I see.   ;)

Courses fit into three groups for relevant purposes:  Private clubs (which in turn could be broken down, but not really relevant to the question), privately-owned public courses (or revenue-oriented municipal courses), "draw" courses, subsidized public courses.

The barrier for the first group is obvious.  The second group is generally trying to maximize revenue.  The owner isn't raising the price to keep people off, you know.  

And for the "draw" courses, I mean courses that subsidize golf for those who come to play in order to profit off a related good - usually a hotel (but sometimes real estate).  These create barriers by limiting access to those who purchase the bundled good.

Amongst public courses, only the last might consider creating a non-price barrier - and even then, would only do so to the extent that it would benefit its constitutents.  Even then, they are unlikely to do anything to dissuade constituents to go.  For those purposes, municipal courses also do the obvious - they price discriminate against non-constitutents (or even restrict tee times entirely).

What is interestingly posed by JK's post is the idea that a golf course could be a Giffin Good.  If the price is so low that the course becomes too crowded, demand will actually decrease since nobody will want to play the course given the time restraints.  Only when the course is raised to a price which naturally filters out some people anyway would (in theory) the golfing public want to play.  However, outside of those courses for which playing is simply a display of wealth, I do not think the pace of play issues actually result in any courses being Giffen Goods.

Anything else may lead to some courses that are unfortunately less crowded than the operator might want - but trust me, the operator isn't then thinking of ways to keep it like that!

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Constructing nondiscriminatory barriers
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2010, 02:00:40 PM »


   TSA Body scans.
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

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