[Charlie Goerges]

What design concepts or features (or business models etc.) that you like or prefer might not be good for the long-term health of the game? Or perhaps for a given course? I'll give a few.

I like blind shots despite most architects and afficianodos disliking them greatly. I acknowledge they bring uncertainty and danger (of the mortal kind) into the game.

I like rolling, hilly courses of the type exemplified by Eastward Ho! (which I have not played) And I like these much more than the "thinking mans'" subtle ground contours. I acknowledge that a golfer my grandfather's age might make it down to the the shore, but never make it back up without use of a golf cart.

I like an empty course and having the run of the place. I acknowledge that an empty course may not be around long for my enjoyment.

I like the idea that the game be affordable to anyone who wishes to play it, no matter how little money they may have. I acknowledge that this is patently impossible, and were it imposed, might be disastrous.


These are but a few possible examples of the idea that "The road to hell is paved with good intentions". Are there more?

[JNC Lyon]

It depends on how you define "health of the game."  Many people define it as the number of people who play the game, and this is a mistake.

[Charlie Goerges]

You define it, and feel free to expand it as well. Blind shots can be hazardous to the health of the participants moreso than the health of the game I'd wager.

[JNC Lyon]

I think golf is healthy when the majority of people playing it have a respect for each other and a respect for the traditions of the game.  I think there are several specific things involved in achieving this objective.  If we are talking architectural features, blind shots and great golfing terrain are integral parts of the best classic courses.  They are both part of the lure and challenge of the game, and therefore they are essential for the health of the game.

[Jim Hoak]

Let's face it--compared to most sports, golf is more mental than physical.  So, as spmeone who chose golf as my passion, I like courses that always make you think, that vary with the weather, the time, the day, and that are more subtle than apparent.  I don't know if that is good for the broad majority of citizens or the health of the game.

[Kyle Harris]

Golf carts most likely make the game more affordable for walkers.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Kyle

You said “Golf carts most likely make the game more affordable for walkers.” I think these guys felt the same way until someone on high advised them of the error of their ways.



They have used a cart so often some can’t get to the top of the hill and have been laid to rest in shallow bunker where they have fallen.


But now in all seriousness how come your statement is not true in GB?

Melvyn

[Kyle Harris]

I haven't done the research and perhaps you can help me, but maybe because the majority of golf courses in GB are:
A: Publically Owned
B: 100+ Years Old
or
C: Expensive in their own right

are factors.

Now, diverging from your red herring a bit, do you care to offer your argument as to why the statement isn't true?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Kyle

If no golf carts how can they make it more affordable for Walkers. Thats the real question and answer to yours.

Melvyn

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle

If no golf carts how can they make it more affordable for Walkers. Thats the real question and answer to yours.

Melvyn

Carts eventually become raw revenue that offset other costs, eventually any fleet will pay for itself, and in short order.

Same goes for banquets held at the clubhouse.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Kyle

Only if you have a fleet of carts, we tend not to in GB.  I have no cross to bear as No carts no revenue

Melvyn

[Kyle Harris]

Melvyn,

I have no knowledge of those business models, nor the expectations of the golfers. If those clubs had a cart fleet, any revenue generated would offset other costs.

Renting a trolley - which I advocate for any course - would have a similar effect.

Kyle

[Melvyn Morrow]

Kyle

I understand you point, but it all falls down if only two cart or none at all. You made a general statement, I just said Walkers do not make anything from carts, not here in GB.

Melvyn

[Dan Boerger]

Melvyn - In June, July and August (some areas add months) in many parts of these United States the heat can be oppressive (certainly as compared to the UK). Access to a cart will absolutely tip the scales in favor of the course that has them for a large number of golfers.

[JNC Lyon]

Melvyn - In June, July and August (some areas add months) in many parts of these United States the heat can be oppressive (certainly as compared to the UK). Access to a cart will absolutely tip the scales in favor of the course that has them for a large number of golfers.

How did people ever manage to play golf in these areas before golf carts?! 

Maybe golf carts make the game less expensive for walkers in theory, but I do not think that is true in practice.  One only has to compare great US public courses to courses of similar quality in the UK.  Most US public courses have carts, most UK courses do not.  Yet golf in the UK, particularly quality golf, is much less expensive.

Additionally, the rise of the golf cart has a brought about many things in the game, including courses that are longer, have bigger distances between greens and tees, and, in general, take up more land.  This has made the game more expensive to play at the public level.  At the private level, carts have been introduced, yet initiation fees have gone through the roof in the last 20 years.

I see no real correlation between the advent of golf courses and lower prices for golf.

[Kyle Harris]

Melvyn - In June, July and August (some areas add months) in many parts of these United States the heat can be oppressive (certainly as compared to the UK). Access to a cart will absolutely tip the scales in favor of the course that has them for a large number of golfers.

How did people ever manage to play golf in these areas before golf carts?! 

Maybe golf carts make the game less expensive for walkers in theory, but I do not think that is true in practice.  One only has to compare great US public courses to courses of similar quality in the UK.  Most US public courses have carts, most UK courses do not.  Yet golf in the UK, particularly quality golf, is much less expensive.

Additionally, the rise of the golf cart has a brought about many things in the game, including courses that are longer, have bigger distances between greens and tees, and, in general, take up more land.  This has made the game more expensive to play at the public level.  At the private level, carts have been introduced, yet initiation fees have gone through the roof in the last 20 years.

I see no real correlation between the advent of golf courses and lower prices for golf.

JNC,

I do not believe the numbers, especially for new course construction, support your claims.

Rising costs, while coinciding with the introduction of the golf cart to the golf market, does not necessarily mean they are the cause of the rise in cost.

Tell me, how high were putting greens cut in 1960 as compared to now? What costs were associated with their maintenance? I believe it is some of the changes in maintenance practices that have been the MAJOR cost driver for the game in the past 30+ years and not the golf cart.

Do golf carts add a new set of variables to golf maintenance? Yes.
Have studies been done to determine if carts truly pay for themselves? I do not know.
Do carts eventually pay for their purchase or lease price in little time? Yes.

Which course's business models in the US should be compared to a similar case in the UK?

[JNC Lyon]

Kyle,

Your original statement was: "Golf carts most likely make the game more affordable for walkers."

Carts are clearly not the only factor in driving up costs.  I would agree that maintenance practices are a major reason for higher costs now than 50 years ago.  In fact, I have argued this point before on this site.  However, the game has not become more affordable as golf carts have been introduced.  I do not see how the game has actually become more affordable for walkers because of golf carts.  Forget business models that do not exist on the ground.  The greens fees are higher now than when we did not have golf carts.

Let's compare public access Open Rota courses to US Open venues in the United States.  Clearly, Bethpage Black is less expensive than most Open Rota layouts, although not so much anymore for non-New York residents.  Yet most of the public access US Open venues are outrageously expensive.  The US Open was at Pebble Beach this year, which costs $500 a round.  I played at Sandwich, next year's British Open venue, for 80 pounds in March and 60 pounds in February.  Pebble Beach has wall-to-wall cart paths, and Sandwich has very few paths.  The same think appears when you compare guest fees at private US Open venues to guest fees at Open rota venues.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

Your original statement was: "Golf carts most likely make the game more affordable for walkers."

Carts are clearly not the only factor in driving up costs.  I would agree that maintenance practices are a major reason for higher costs now than 50 years ago.  In fact, I have argued this point before on this site.  However, the game has not become more affordable as golf carts have been introduced.  I do not see how the game has actually become more affordable for walkers because of golf carts.  Forget business models that do not exist on the ground.  The greens fees are higher now than when we did not have golf carts.

Let's compare public access Open Rota courses to US Open venues in the United States.  Clearly, Bethpage Black is less expensive than most Open Rota layouts, although not so much anymore for non-New York residents.  Yet most of the public access US Open venues are outrageously expensive.  The US Open was at Pebble Beach this year, which costs $500 a round.  I played at Sandwich, next year's British Open venue, for 80 pounds in March and 60 pounds in February.  Pebble Beach has wall-to-wall cart paths, and Sandwich has very few paths.  The same think appears when you compare guest fees at private US Open venues to guest fees at Open rota venues.

Doesn't demand drive price in these instances too? I believe Pebble Beach charges that much per round because they can. Pebble Beach also has private owners which want to make money. Does Sandwich? I'm asking there because I do not know either. I think we can both agree that the demand to play Pebble is significantly higher than any of the Open Rota courses, with the possible exception of St. Andrews Old.

Are the weather conditions at Sandwich as favorable year round as at Pebble (I'm asking cause I do not know, February and March seem a bit early).

How does the cost of the Open rota courses compare to that of the run-of-the-mill, off-the-beaten-path course enjoyed by the local golfing population in the UK?

I will put forth the theory that the increase in cost would be much steeper here in the US without the golf cart, ASSUMING equal demand. I think we need to think about what the cost of golf today would be without the golf cart.

Again, just food for thought as we work through the original statement. I don't know enough about how golf courses in the UK are managed and for what purpose to make any comparison, if there are any to be made.

[Dan Boerger]

JNC - You ask ... How did people ever manage to play golf in these areas before golf carts?!

Answer - the exact same way people lived in high rise buildings before air conditioning. You would either have to be a social utopian or very wealthy to ban carts at your course and ignore the market forces the have made the use of golf carts a necessity for the vast majority of course owners. 

[Tim Nugent]

Carts - A Case Study

We had a 9-hole course-89 acres. In design, the terrain and green-to-tee proximity was so favorable we opted to save the $150k upfront expense and NOT install paths (the maint compound was in the middle of the course).  At 1st we had only a handful of carts for physically impaired/elderly.  We ran out often and had customers complain and not play "without a cart".  So, following the customer, we gradually increase our cart numbers.  They always paid for themselves as we leased them.  After a few years, limiting carts to "Dry days only" due to no paths, became problematic.  So we (I) rented a 6' rototiller and created a path systems. Lucky for us, we had access to free asphalt grindings ( a by-product of road repair) and soon had a wall-to-wall system.  Eventually we reached an equilibrium point at 24 carts.  Unfortunately, you have to program on the margin so, while the pwr cart revenue would have been greater with 18, customer satisfaction would have been lower.
So, we started off planning and designing a walking only freindly course and the market dictated a full cart program. You have to give the customer what he wants.  In Europe, golf seems to be more of an opportunity for casual exercise whereas in the States a social outing.  So, I think iit's a fools errand to try to equate the to different cultures.

[Sean_A]

"How does the cost of the Open rota courses compare to that of the run-of-the-mill, off-the-beaten-path course enjoyed by the local golfing population in the UK?"

Kyle, this is a good question which highlights on of the differences between the UK and USA.  There are very few run of the mill public courses in the UK compared to the US.  Most courses in the UK are privately owned that allow limited public access.  My guess would be that among the run of the mill privates the average visitor fee in high season is between £20 and £35 (say $30 and $53).  The Open rota courses probably average around £150 in high season ($225). 

I am guessing in the States the average run of the mill public is $15-$25.  I don't really know what the private Open going rates are, but I suspect not cheap - maybe $250 and add in the odd public rate like Pebble and Pinehurst and perhaps the average bumps up $25 - call it $275 for US Open course on average?   

I think you can see the difference in price hike ratio between the two countries even though it isn't an exact comparison.  To me, this reflects the cultural differences in clubs where UK clubs tend to be far less exclusive compared to the US. 

JNC

I think (?) what Kyle is saying is that green fees have gone up for sure since carts were introduced, but they would likely have gone up more if not for carts.  However, at the end of the day, for walkers, carts can only push up the price.  Its the riders that have financially benefited from the cart culture - its just that riders are so numerous that their wish for carts as a service control the price points for green fees.

Ciao

[Dave McCollum]

I think all should read Tim Nugent’s post again.  We would not be profitable, at our current rates, without renting carts.  Like them or not, carts are the only cash cow in our operation.  We are just a little, affordable golf course with a very low maintenance budget (relatively).  We do about 30K rounds a year.  The course is an easy walk and only 6800 yards.  Most of our play is local, but we get a fair amount of visitors due to our spectacular location and slightly longer season than other courses.  Rounds are split 60% by season pass holders (who call themselves “members”) and 40% paying green fees.  However, revenues reverse the equation with 60% of the money coming from green fees and 40% from passes.  So, one could argue that fee paying customers make the golf more affordable for the “members.”  Cart rentals certainly keep the golf affordable for all.  Cart rentals are also more in line with the notion that “the more you play, the more you pay” although we also offer a season cart pass that allows “members” to ride at a cheaper per-round rate than fee payers, providing they play enough rounds (most do).
         
Without cart revenues we simply could not afford to maintain the place as well as we do (good greens, but pretty basic everywhere else).  Or our rates would have to go up significantly without them. 

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()