[Mike_Young]

 Welll..let's just say does the theory of Motion..for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction apply to classic architecture and modern maintenance practices....or in other words....as the ball goes further ...does the increase in green speed offset any gain if slopes and green complexes remain the same?  I say yes....even fairway height  mowed lower on a classic sloped fairway demands more accuracy due to the lateral movement of the modern course etc....  and the green slopes require more thought even with a wedge in hand vs increasing the length and decreasing the slope....IMHO our present pattern of decreasing slpes in many of these older courses is much more detrimental than adding distance.....and longer with less slope is much easier than short and more slope...IMHO
These are my thoughts when I eat 8 doughnuts on a Sat morning.... uhhhh

[Tom_Doak]

Mike,

Well, it is a law of physics, so it ought to apply as you say.  But green committees are always trying to fight against it in the name of fairness.  They want the course longer, they want the bunkers tighter or deeper or further downrange ... but they want the greens softer and the slopes tamer.

I have had the same reaction from clients on a couple of my brand new courses.  They insist on making th e greens so fast that they think the slopes in the greens are too much.  At Rock Creek they actually slowed down the fairways and the short grass around the greens this year (raising the mowing heights a bit), and then they thought the course played a bit too long!

[Melvyn Morrow]

Newton's First Law of Motion related to Golf Design states that....

When playing on a Links Course never face the wind to pee

Not a well known law but explains links golf in just a few drops

Melvyn

[Bill_McBride]

Newton's First Law of Motion related to Golf Design states that....

When playing on a Links Course never face the wind to pee

Not a well known law but explains links golf in just a few drops

Melvyn

There's actually an old Jerry Jeff Walker country song, "Pissin' in the Wind."  I'll see if I can find the lyrics.......

[Adam Clayman]

  At Rock Creek they actually slowed down the fairways and the short grass around the greens this year (raising the mowing heights a bit), and then they thought the course played a bit too long!

Tom, I don't think I'll ever get over the dichotomy that exists between the maintenance meld and the perceptions of 'powers that be' at some of the country's finest layouts.

One of the caddies at SFGC kept harping on how much easier the course is now. Even though the new greens chair has mowed the bunker collars down to allow balls close enough, and with just the right spin, to feed into them. I just poo pooed the notion and kept thinking, anybody can build a hard course. At Olympic, I'm shocked that a club as deeply intrenched in Amateur athletics, could present their courses in such a non-sporting way. (Soft and lush) They should be the leaders in the intelligent presentation of their golf course, and their not. They're just following the Lemmings over the cliff.

Mike, Interesting posit. I'll give it some more thought but at first blush, many want to think they are getting a tougher track when in reality they do make it easier by speeding up the greens.   

[Steve Lang]

  First of all... you've jumped to the third law!  

http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/history/newton3laws.html

you might want to build your way there to the third law..

[BCrosby]

As the Green Chair at my course, I'm hearing something different from members.

They don't mind fast, highly contoured greens. In fact, they seem to love them.

Green firmness is something else. It seems to be a much bigger issue at my course. I'm berated with the old 'fairness' solecism. "If I hit a perfect 6 iron to the pin, I ought to have a reasonable putt. The ball shouldn't bounce off the green. It's only fair. Right? A perfect shot should be rewarded. Right?"

I have a couple obvious, stock answers. I'm not sure I've convinced anyone.

Bob



   

 

[Peter Pallotta]

Bob - I didn't know you were a Green Chair. What is it exactly about thankless tasks that you enjoy so much?

Yes, as in ethics so too in golf, our notions of fairness have become completely commercialized, i.e. the 'fair exchange' of the marketplace has become -- to our detriment-- the measuring stick/guide for all other areas of our lives.

Peter

[BCrosby]

Peter -

They promised me a cold beer and a bag of fried pork rinds. I have yet to see them.

I've actually enjoyed it. Every week is a wild ride from the sublime to the ridiculous and back again.

Something for which, after years here at GCA, I was well prepared.

Bob 

[Don_Mahaffey]

As the Green Chair at my course, I'm hearing something different from members.

They don't mind fast, highly contoured greens. In fact, they seem to love them.

Green firmness is something else. It seems to be a much bigger issue at my course. I'm berated with the old 'fairness' solecism. "If I hit a perfect 6 iron to the pin, I ought to have a reasonable putt. The ball shouldn't bounce off the green. It's only fair. Right? A perfect shot should be rewarded. Right?"

I have a couple obvious, stock answers. I'm not sure I've convinced anyone.

Bob

Bob, as a super this is often a complaint we hear. The greens are too firm, they don't hold a good shot. Truth is of course, yes they do, but what's a good shot?
You know what I've found to be the best way to keep firm greens and combat this complaint...present a firm golf course through the green as well as on the green. Granted if you have a bunch of fronting bunkers and pinched approaches then this isn't the best method, but if your greens will allow running shots, then the best way to keep firm greens and limit complaints is to present firm approaches as well.


   

 

[Bill_McBride]

Peter -

They promised me a cold beer and a bag of fried pork rinds. I have yet to see them.

I've actually enjoyed it. Every week is a wild ride from the sublime to the ridiculous and back again.

Something for which, after years here at GCA, I was well prepared.

Bob 

Bob, have you taken your superintendent to a computer to show him something on GCA.com that illustrates a point you are trying to make?  I did that on a regular basis during my two years of "fun."

[BCrosby]

Don -

What I've said to members  - it seems to have actually resonated in a couple of cases -  is that with firmer conditions you have to pay more attention to the architecture of the course. Approach angles matter more. The axis of the green, the location of bunkers and fw's angles all matter more. You have to think about that stuff. With firm conditions it's often not enough to hit it down the middle and then hit it right at the pin and assume you are golden.

I also tell them it has nothing to do with 'fairness'. Whatever the heck that is supposed to mean in the context. It is possible to get greens too firm, thus making scoring too difficult and golf no fun. Likewise it is possible to have them too soft, making scoring too easy and golf less interesting. There is a wide mid-range between those poles. But appealing to abstract concepts like 'fairness' is to miss the important issues.

Bill -

I have tried to get our super to look in here. I think it would be a good idea. I haven't given up.

Bob 

[PThomas]

certainly brings to mind John Kirks thoughts about the the time of a golf shot...

[Bill_McBride]

Don -

What I've said to members  - it seems to have actually resonated in a couple of cases -  is that with firmer conditions you have to pay more attention to the architecture of the course. Approach angles matter more. The axis of the green, the location of bunkers and fw's angles all matter more. You have to think about that stuff. With firm conditions it's often not enough to hit it down the middle and then hit it right at the pin and assume you are golden.

I also tell them it has nothing to do with 'fairness'. Whatever the heck that is supposed to mean in the context. It is possible to get greens too firm, thus making scoring too difficult and golf no fun. Likewise it is possible to have them too soft, making scoring too easy and golf less interesting. There is a wide mid-range between those poles. But appealing to abstract concepts like 'fairness' is to miss the important issues.

Bill -

I have tried to get our super to look in here. I think it would be a good idea. I haven't given up.

Bob 

FWIW our guy loved this photo.  Mowing like this never did quite happen.

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