Why no love for Pinehurst #2

[Jon Spaulding]

Matt, I have only played 36 holes there, but I loved #2.

What it might lack in aesthetics it more than makes up for in approach shot "sphincter factor" and balance.

[George Pazin]

What it might lack in aesthetics it more than makes up for in approach shot "sphincter factor" and balance.

Are these characteristics apparent during your first play?

[Chip Gaskins]

What it might lack in aesthetics it more than makes up for in approach shot "sphincter factor" and balance.

Are these characteristics apparent during your first play?

George

They become apparent on about the 3rd green after making three double bogeys after hitting three decent approach shots on the first three holes :-)  From that point on you are petrified....

[JSlonis]

I just spoke to a local friend of mine who has a home down at CCNC. He was in Pinehurst last week for a visit and took a look around #2.  He's pretty well versed in golf course architecture and thought the work that C & C was doing looked fantastic.

I've always enjoyed the course very much.  i like that it presents a different set of challenges compared to a lot of other top rated courses here in the Northeast. 

[Tyler Kearns]

A link from the Coore/Crenshaw blog (mid-October update) showing the progress of the work;

http://www.pinehurst.tv/bcards/view.php?id=d2b3fc7086ccb92f332d9dd38b181a85

TK

[Chris Buie]

You may appreciate this film clip.  That is Dick Chapman hitting in the second photo - with Hogan in the background.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5plfP_EoPGo

Here's another good clip about the restoration:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAuRpKa2eVQ&feature=related

[Terry Lavin]

Some find the sublime to be mundane.

[Anthony Fowler]

I have only played the course once and I came away underwhelmed.  I agree with others like Ed that the course is not that strategic.  Tee-to-green, the player is just trying to hit the fairway and then hit the middle of the green.  The effective green sizes (not counting the areas that won't hold an approach) are very small, so you're playing from one small target to the next all day. 

My biggest critique is one that others have not made yet.  The greens are actually quite flat and boring once you get on the putting surface itself.  Chipping and pitching are both great at No. 2, but once you get on (and stay on) the green, you have a lot of flat, boring putts.  In the old pictures, it appears that this was not the case.  Years of adjustments to the greens have made the surfaces worse in order to get that signature dome on every hole.  I suspect that Ross' original greens were truly great, but the current versions are not. 

[Joe Bausch]

One thing is for sure:  play Pinehurst, then play better hockey.   

The Philadelphia Flyers had many days off recently so before their next game, at Carolina, they vacayed at Pinehurst.  They played No 2 the day before yesterday, then came out last night and put the beatdown on the Hurricanes, 8-1, with two players getting hat tricks (Carter's being au natural).

[Jon Spaulding]

What it might lack in aesthetics it more than makes up for in approach shot "sphincter factor" and balance.

Are these characteristics apparent during your first play?

George, a good portion was apparent, due to a decent caddy. Thy bunghole was quite tight this first time around.

The second round was highly enjoyable, bunghole perhaps tighter. I find the beard pulling and execution required (strategy) on the approaches remarkable. Rarely does one need to ponder trajectory, shape, spin, location as much as on #2. I would put NGLA in the same stratosphere.

[Norbert P]

A link from the Coore/Crenshaw blog (mid-October update) showing the progress of the work;

http://www.pinehurst.tv/bcards/view.php?id=d2b3fc7086ccb92f332d9dd38b181a85

TK

  Tyler,   Looks fantastic. Here's a shot pre-CC.   (Taken from behind green.)

      

   Not a great picture for demonstrating the difference but I think your link illustrates nicely the CC direction.  (Nice guitarwork, also)


  I know I should bite my tongue and will probably regret this but . . . I dig the big left wasteland but I'd like to see the fairway open up between the formalized front and back bunkers that bookmark the sand.  The fairway alley's left edge is a bit too linear and takes away from the left side option approach. If Ross actually said that he liked first holes to be easy introductions to a round, then this would help in that cause.



   If anybody could post an old picture when it was originally built, that would be very appreciated and interesting.

[Chris Buie]

The man who doesn’t feel emotionally stirred when he golfs at Pinehurst beneath those clear blue skies and with the pine fragrance in his nostrils is one who should be ruled out of golf for life. - Tommy Armour

[Matt_Ward]

Anthony F:

A one-time play doesn't reveal that much.

Clearly, the C&C involvement should improve upon what is already there.

We shall see ...

[Anthony Fowler]

Anthony F:

A one-time play doesn't reveal that much.

Matt, I don't buy this.  You asked a question, we gave our answers, and your only reply is that we need to play it more?  Can you explain to me and others what we have missed that we would appreciate only after many rounds?

As for my comments, I don't see how multiple rounds would change these perceptions.  I think the greens are not particularly exciting once you're on them, there is not a lot of strategy tee-to-green.  However, I would love to hear what I missed.   

[JR Potts]

Anthony - don't you know, it's the subtleness.  Only a trained eye can see it...and yet, nobody can describe it.

[Sean_A]

I think there is a ton of llove for Pinehurst - too much love.  How else can they justify the stupid green fee?  I keep hearing about subtlety and I disagree completely.  The course is about the greens and they are not in the least subtle.  Time and time again its hit the small, plateau green or have an awkward chip/putt recovery.  For me, Pinehurst is too much of a one trick pony which I could likely overlook except for the price and ambience of the place.  I would love to properly see what those greens should be like - as Ross designed them.

Ciao

[Chris Buie]

The course has already been discussed ad infinitum - which is why I don't really find it necessary to elaborate.  On this forum I try to go into topics that haven't already been covered innumerable times.   However, if anybody wants a description why not start with Ran's take?
http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/pinehurst-no-2

[Norbert P]

  Articles about Pinehurst #2 changes . . .

    http://www.triadgolf.com/?p=354

    http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/05/25/1458023/turning-back-the-clock-on-pinehurst.html

[Kevin Lynch]

In looking at the changes being made, I am looking forward to the day when my game stays stable enough that I am willing to shell out $400 to face the challenges presented by Pinehurst.  I don’t mind spending that type of money when it’s the course providing the challenges.  However, when my ball-striking is off, the course becomes less relevant, and I may as well take my beating from a $50 public access course.

I agree with Sean that I would like to see Ross’ initial intended greens, as a general theme I see arising from people is that the greens have taken up too much importance and become a little too extreme.

Regarding the whole subtlety / nuance issue and the need for multiple plays, it simply saddens me that the cost has frankly placed that out of reach for the average golfer. 

[Matt_Ward]

Anthony:

SO let me get this straight -- you can assess a course 100% in all ways with just a one time visit.

OK -- fair enough.

Let me say this for what it's worth -- I assume you mind is open to the possibility you could be wrong -- but proper positioning off the tee at #2 is essential. The idea that you can approach the greens from anywhere and it's just the greens themselves is rubbish. Ditto the idea that once on the greens they are nothing more than pedestrian shows me you must have been playing quite quick on your one time play.

[Chris Buie]

...proper positioning off the tee at #2 is essential. The idea that you can approach the greens from anywhere and it's just the greens themselves is rubbish. - Matt Ward

Correct!  
#2 is about much more than just the greens.  Now that the width of the fairways have been wisely and boldly reinstated you are going to want to play the angles off the tee.  For instance, on one you are going to have a much better angle to come at the green from the right side.  If you hit the fairway or waste area left you are going to have a much more difficult approach.  But you are not dead - Ross gives you a strong challenge for your mis-play off the tee.
The approach shot is a very key element to #2.  As with the whole course you are going to have to really think your way around.  If you haven't noticed that is one of the main elements of the course.  That goes for pretty much every shot, mind you.  Lose your focus or make an incorrect strategic choice (like aiming for a precariously positioned flag) and see what happens.  I've seen many many pros make that particular mistake - and watched them pay the price for their strategic error.
Another thing about #2 is that you have to execute very well.  This is not a Saturday afternoon course you just ramble around on with your buddies.  This is where you find out how good your game is.  I think Ross calibrated the course to have just the right amount of challenge for the really advanced golfer.  Spend a lot of time on the course and you will see how very well he calibrated that.  You have to choose the right kind of shot to play and then you have to pull it off very well.  Watch Palmer in the Shell's golf thing he did with Nicklaus.  He hits the right side of the fairway on one and then he hits a good iron into the green.  Guess what?  Didn't end up too well.  He made a good shot in there - but he didn't not execute it just right.  If you mess up (strategically or execution wise) then you are (properly) given a very strong challenge to redeem yourself.  That level of challenge Ross leaves you with wasn't randomly put in the design.  It was extremely considered - over decades.
Well, there is an off hand thumbnail sketch for you.  I hope it helps you understand it better.  It's merits are not completely obvious and yes it is not flashy.  I assume you fellows are above that.
Regarding the pricing - the criticism has validity.  However, that has already been covered here about 8,000 times before.  Does it really need to be reiterated over and over?
Oh by the way Sean, I love your profiles of those quirky and obscure English courses.  That is one of my favorite parts of GCA.
Best Regards to you all

[Jud_T]

Ron Whitten from the current Golfweek:

"Much of the Bermuda rough is being killed by a herbicide spray.  The dead grass and roots will be stripped away with sod cutters, exposing a subsurface of sand and patches of dirt.  Into that, tufts of wiregrass will be hand-planted.  Pine needles drifting down onto newly exposed sand will help re-establish the original Pinehurst look.  Workers have been cautioned not to till up or rake any sand.  Coore and Crenshaw don't want 'waste bunkers', they want areas of 'hardpan' so errant shots might bounce and roll into pine trees".

The jury's still out, but this may well turn out to be one of the best investments in Renovation history....

[jim_lewis]

Maybe I don't understand everyone else's definition of "subtle", but it seems to me that if you can see subtleties on the first look, then they must not be very subtle. It also seems to me that by definition if something is subtle, it does not reveal itself readily and requires prolonged examination to understand.

Therefore, one should not be surprised if they don't recognize the subtleties of #2, or any other course, on the first visit.

If I can explain or describe subleties, they must not be all that subtle.

[Matt_Ward]

Chris:

yes, the pricing needs to be mentioned.

When people go to play a place -- and then get socked for $400 and the place is not tip top shape -- that's a big time issue and the people operating the joint need to hear it -- loud and clear -- and try to provide some real connection to those playing the course.

Pebble is renown for this too. When you charge exorbitant fees - then the place needs to be at its ultra best. Simple as that.

[Chris Buie]

Matt, I didn't say the pricing doesn't need to be mentioned.  I said we don't need to keep repeating it ad infinitum.  That has already been covered here many, many times before.