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Matt_Ward

Re: Why no love for Pinehurst #2
« Reply #50 on: November 16, 2010, 03:35:24 PM »
Chris:

It should be repeated over and over -- until all facilities understand 1000% that you don't charge top dollar when the conditioning and overall golf dimension is subpar.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why no love for Pinehurst #2
« Reply #51 on: November 16, 2010, 03:52:48 PM »
I wonder if it'll be 500+ once the work is done....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Chris Buie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why no love for Pinehurst #2
« Reply #52 on: November 16, 2010, 04:43:22 PM »
Matt, do you think Ran wants the same stuff repeated over and over ad nauseum?  Actually, don't bother to answer, you've already made up your mind that is ok.

Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why no love for Pinehurst #2
« Reply #53 on: November 16, 2010, 05:20:55 PM »
Chris,
Thanks for posting the youtube video under your signature. At the 1:15 mark there's a photo of two golfers walking towards the 6th green - probably during the mid-1930s. It's a great piece of evidence to emphasize how the greens have been built up over time. I had to convince myself that it really was the 6th.

Also - at the :20 mark is a photo of Ross on the tee with the word "location" superimposed. Unfortunately, it was not taken on #2; it's the 10th hole at Pine Needles.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why no love for Pinehurst #2
« Reply #54 on: November 16, 2010, 05:53:21 PM »
Chris,
Thanks for posting the youtube video under your signature. At the 1:15 mark there's a photo of two golfers walking towards the 6th green - probably during the mid-1930s. It's a great piece of evidence to emphasize how the greens have been built up over time. I had to convince myself that it really was the 6th.

Also - at the :20 mark is a photo of Ross on the tee with the word "location" superimposed. Unfortunately, it was not taken on #2; it's the 10th hole at Pine Needles.

Crig

I too noticed the green on #6 and couldn't figure out which course it was until fter a few days looking about.  Its a huge difference between then and now and I suspect many of the greens are very different.

Ciao   
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Matt_Ward

Re: Why no love for Pinehurst #2
« Reply #55 on: November 16, 2010, 06:05:10 PM »
Chris:

Excuse me -- when is their a statute of limitations on important topics ?

I really love Pinehurst #2 and the different courses there,

However, I don't like seeing places put the bite on people for the full ride of $400+ and then have half ass conditions when there.

Travis Dewire

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why no love for Pinehurst #2
« Reply #56 on: November 16, 2010, 06:27:27 PM »
On hole #1, I had a 20 footer downhill for par

I read this thing to the 9's and would have SWORN, it was in after I stroked the putt on the money


"US Open that is in!" was all I could say as I got the ball halfway there


....not sure what was up with that - or how you could put into a bunker from on the green with them running at that speed

not what i expected at all

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why no love for Pinehurst #2
« Reply #57 on: November 18, 2010, 02:39:44 PM »
its too subtle, except for the greens, for many people to appreciate

This could be one of the biggest elitist know-it-all comments I've read on this site.  

Tell me wise one, what's so subtle about it?  What did your trained eye see that my eye, which is apparently incapable of recognizing subtlety, missed?  What I saw was a poorly conditioned pasture with some really cool greens and a nice routing...and that's it.  The mowing lines and conditioning were abysmal and the course looked and played like a muni....a 450 dollar muni.

I would have played Pine Needles and #4 over #2 all day.  

All the above being equal, I can't wait to go back after CandC are finished.  Maybe then I'll pick up on the subtlety.

Wouldn't it by definition be too subtle for you if you can only pick up on the greatness of the course if it is maintained in perfect condition?

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why no love for Pinehurst #2
« Reply #58 on: November 18, 2010, 02:46:55 PM »
In my experience #2 will beat me up 9 out of every 10 times I play it, but it is thrilling beyond words on that rare occasion that I have a good day there. It's like going fishing 9 times and catching nothing and then hooking the "big one" on the 10th try.

For me the subtlety starts with accepting the fact that you are going to miss a lot of greens. Even very good players do. Then the secret and strategy is figuring out where to miss and not miss a green. It took me many plays to master that on every hole.

There is also the matter of recognizing that certain parts of some grees break opposite from what they appear. For instance, any approach sohot to the right side of the 3rd and 12th greens will probably turn right off the green. I can't see that from the fairway. It takes a while to figure that any shot to the left side of the 5th green will break your heart by turning sharply left and finding the front left bunker. There is a bunker left of the 16th fairway. It seems that any second shot that looks like it will split the fairway winds up in that bunker which you can see from where most drives stop. I have made many pars from the left greenside bunker on #6, none from the right. You are better off in the left rough that the right side of the fairway on #7. Just a few examples of things I did not learn until after several plays.

Maybe I'm just slow to learn, but this knowledge definitely influences my "strategy" for playing most holes. Having said that, I look forward to the widening of the fairways.

As someone who has played the course hundreds of times, there is a ton of strategy out there. Jim alludes to just some of it. With the widening of the fairways there will be more strategy in the tee shots, which has been none existent for at least the last 10 years. Knowing where to miss those greens and for which hole locations to miss where is the key to scoring. Not every green is always miss it "here" to make a par. Most greens have multiple places to miss for the easier up and down depending on the hole location.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Why no love for Pinehurst #2
« Reply #59 on: November 18, 2010, 02:57:17 PM »
I think there is a ton of llove for Pinehurst - too much love.  How else can they justify the stupid green fee?  I keep hearing about subtlety and I disagree completely.  The course is about the greens and they are not in the least subtle.  Time and time again its hit the small, plateau green or have an awkward chip/putt recovery.  For me, Pinehurst is too much of a one trick pony which I could likely overlook except for the price and ambience of the place.  I would love to properly see what those greens should be like - as Ross designed them.

Ciao

Sean,

I remember when I worked for Pete Dye, one conversation where he went off on #2. he said that the first green was shaped like a Volkswagen with a six foot deep bunker to the left and an impossible chip from the right, and wondered aloud what was so subtle about that.

But, do not misunderstand, Mr. Dye has always been one of Pinehurst No. 2's biggest fans.

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why no love for Pinehurst #2
« Reply #60 on: November 18, 2010, 03:04:59 PM »
Also, the greens are not flat once you are on them. #3, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #11, #12, #14, #15, and #18 have very important slope(s) on the greens that dictate strategy and can make green reading very difficult. I could have mentioned other holes like #1 but only state the obvious ones. I bet I can read the greens better than most of the guys playing in the U.S. Open there because the greens aresubtle and tricky.

Also, while Chris likes the tee shot to right on #1, I think the ideal tee shot is as to close to the left fairway (formerly rough) bunker. First, this leaves a shorter shot in - perhaps wedge or sandwedge instead of 8 or 9 iron. Second, the green is very subtely sloped from right to left. Therefore, an approach from the left is hitting into the hill. This is important when the greens are very firm, which hasn't been the case very much in recent years. Third, the left greenside bunker isn't much of a concern to me when approaching the fairway from the left because I find that up and down easier than when you miss the green anywhere to the right.

If anyone cares to know the idiosyncracies/subtleties of every hole I can easily do it. Many of them I didn't learn until after playing the course for years.

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why no love for Pinehurst #2
« Reply #61 on: November 18, 2010, 03:08:05 PM »
Tom - it's funny that you and posted on the first green at the same time. As I already said I don't find that left bunker that tough to play from, perhaps because of the better sand wedges these and I am a decent bunker player. However, I see 95% of the people miss that green to the right and virtually nobody get up and down. It looks so inviting to miss over and the green is only a foot or two above the fairway level. But, I find negotiating the speed up that slope with the green subtely sloping way darn near impossible.

Chris Buie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why no love for Pinehurst #2
« Reply #62 on: November 18, 2010, 03:39:28 PM »
Steve's perspective is interesting.  His is a first rate player and knows the game well.  Still, I favor the approach from the right and he does from the left.  I wonder what others think?
For starters, playing your tee shot to the left brings the fairway bunkers into play.  Extremely difficult to make par from there.  I've never heard anyone say that greenside bunker was easy to play from.  Never.  With his high level of skill I'm sure he can negotiate that shot.  But for the vast majority - coming out of that bunker is quite difficult.  It sits pretty low with a very high, crowned green as the target.  Easy to roll a bunker shot over - or leave it in the bunker if you get too cute with it.  For me the bump and run - or loft for a longer shot is easier.
I respect Steve's opinion but no question for me the right side is preferable.  I've never heard a single person say they preferred the left.
What do you guys think?  I'm including some imagery for your consideration.


The approach from fairway right.


Could you make par from those fairway bunkers on the left?
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 03:51:07 PM by Chris Buie »

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why no love for Pinehurst #2
« Reply #63 on: November 18, 2010, 03:58:53 PM »
Chris - I also tend to miss the green to the right more from the right side of the fairway. Even though I don't mind the left greenside bunker I tend to steer away from it more from the right side of the fairway. Maybe saying the bunker shot is easy is an overstatement but I have had good success getting up and down from it - unless the pin is in the very front. I HATE missing that green to the right. As soon as I do it I feel an instant bogey coming on one of the easier holes on the course. Then, the second becomes a likely bogey because I press to make par to make up for the bogey on 1.

Also, it's important to note that I sometimes like unusual tee shots or odd angles off the tee. I have a very particular eye when it comes to tee shots. For example at my home club there is a very downhill par 5 with a narrow fairway (for how downhill it is) with OB left and water right. The sensible shot would be to aim down the right and draw it into the fairway sense the penalty for water is less than OB. But I aim OB and fade it back into the fairway. It's just an easier shot for me. I will hit OB may be once a year compared to going down the right I hit it in the water at least 50% of the time.

Chris Buie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why no love for Pinehurst #2
« Reply #64 on: November 18, 2010, 06:17:52 PM »
Steve, I enjoy hearing different takes on strategy.  I play with a very talented guy that often chooses different strategies from what everyone else would do. 
I've been watching the pros play that course since the mid-70's - that is where I learned elements of strategy.  I remember being surprised as a kid when the pros putted from off the green.  That had never occurred to me before.  One practice round Wally Armstrong let me and a couple of other kids walk with him.  What a thrill for a kid - and what a super guy!  He told us what he was trying to do before he hit a shot.  We felt really privileged.  With the tour trying to raise it's popularity I would suggest that they encourage players to let some well behaved kids walk with them a few holes during the practice rounds.  Just have the caddy tell them to be quiet and still when the pro is hitting.  I guarantee you will make a lot of kids into serious golfers that way. 
Back to Steve.  Have a look at where this flag is in the following photo.  You would have to have the touch of a skilled neurosurgeon to get this close to the flag - a small area with a big drop behind the 13 stimp turtleback green.  My hat is off to you if you can pull that off.  Well, actually I think you are one of the 4% of the golfers that could.  In case you haven't played with Steve, he really is that good.

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why no love for Pinehurst #2
« Reply #65 on: November 18, 2010, 06:33:56 PM »
I doubt I would go for that flag from anywhere. I've never really played when the pin has been there, but if memory serves correct long is not that bad on that holed with  pin the back.

Ian Andrew

Re: Why no love for Pinehurst #2
« Reply #66 on: November 18, 2010, 08:07:38 PM »
For me the subtlety starts with accepting the fact that you are going to miss a lot of greens. Even very good players do. Then the secret and strategy is figuring out where to miss and not miss a green. It took me many plays to master that on every hole.

Loved you comments and I singled this part out. Interestingly I played it in each of the previous three decades – only realized that today.

The reason I love the course is the way it makes you play. To score you must respect the course and accept that sometimes you have to play to save a par. Other times you given an opening to be a little more aggressive, but even then you must way the potential of ending up in the wrong spot. I love the fact that the set-up can take it from fun to a nightmare (seen both prefer fun). You must simply park your ego and often take what is given to shoot the best score that your abilities will allow. Most people hate that aspect.

Architecturally it remains a 10 in my book - can't break par - can't lose a ball - how good is that!

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why no love for Pinehurst #2
« Reply #67 on: November 19, 2010, 08:03:36 AM »

Architecturally it remains a 10 in my book - can't break par - can't lose a ball - how good is that!

Ian - this is so true. As I said I've played the course hundreds of times over the last 20 years. For 15 of those 20 years my handicap has been below scratch. I've played every set of tees many times. I've broken par on the course exactly one time. That was this fall in the member-guest when I shot 69 from the white tees (something like 6,200-6,300 yards). It's really a par 68 from those tees for me because I'm hitting an iron into every par 5. But, I had to play really well to do it. I don't think I've ever lost a ball on that course.

I'm headed down there next week. I'll try to get some pictures of the work being done if I have time.

hhuffines

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why no love for Pinehurst #2
« Reply #68 on: November 19, 2010, 10:42:47 AM »
I took a quick walk out there yesterday and was amazed at the amount of work going on.  Lots of crews finishing edges on the greens and others putting in new water pipes and valves.  It was fun to watch the guys working in the fairway bunkers on #8 and getting the right look within the scrub areas.

Does anyone know how much more bermuda they will be pulling out?  I hope a lot - it looked like they were preparing the entire left side of 18 for the sand/scrub treatment.

Very exciting to see the changes!!!

Ian Andrew

Re: Why no love for Pinehurst #2
« Reply #69 on: November 19, 2010, 05:12:07 PM »
"Fun and interesting courses are those that tempt, but do not dictate…they are courses like Pinehurst #2 that recognize the inherent value of power and encourage its use, but not to the point of giving indiscriminate length an insurmountable advantage." 

Quote from Bill Coore

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why no love for Pinehurst #2
« Reply #70 on: November 24, 2010, 05:39:01 PM »
Drove around #2 this afternoon. Holes 11-13 appear to be the most complete and look really, really good. There's still some work to be done on the bunkers around those greens it looks like. Mounding is being added to the waste areas as well as wire grass. Some new bunkers have been added as well. All greens are being regrassed but it doesn't appear that any of the contours are being changed. Based on what I've seen since I was here back in September I am VERY excited about what the course will look like next year when it opens. I think it will look fantastic. If they get it to play firm and fast consistently then the course will deserve to move back into the top ten.

Matt_Ward

Re: Why no love for Pinehurst #2
« Reply #71 on: November 24, 2010, 10:09:51 PM »
Steve:

My question is how firm and fast can they get the course in a June time frame and in the south central portion of the Piedmont where high humidity and frequent t-storms can be the norm.

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why no love for Pinehurst #2
« Reply #72 on: November 25, 2010, 08:14:49 AM »
Certainly every course has it's peak season, but I think it could be done. I have certainly played it firm and fast in the summer many times. Maybe not as firm and fast as Bandon or Ballyneal, but good enough for June in NC and for the architecture to still shine. What is unacceptable is doing all this renovation work, charging $350 and having the course be in bad shape. If you are going to charge that much I expect the course to be in tip top shape all the time.

K. Krahenbuhl

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why no love for Pinehurst #2
« Reply #73 on: November 25, 2010, 08:50:33 AM »
Drove around #2 this afternoon. Holes 11-13 appear to be the most complete and look really, really good. There's still some work to be done on the bunkers around those greens it looks like. Mounding is being added to the waste areas as well as wire grass. Some new bunkers have been added as well. All greens are being regrassed but it doesn't appear that any of the contours are being changed. Based on what I've seen since I was here back in September I am VERY excited about what the course will look like next year when it opens. I think it will look fantastic. If they get it to play firm and fast consistently then the course will deserve to move back into the top ten.

I must have just missed you Steve.  I did the same thing yesterday and although it was my first visit to Pinehurst, so I don't have a point of reference on the changes, I thought the course looked wonderful.

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why no love for Pinehurst #2
« Reply #74 on: November 26, 2010, 07:40:09 AM »
I saw a man with his wife and parents getting their picture taken late in the afternoon after we drove around the course. That would be too funny if that was you.