[Jud_T]

sorry, but i would have voted for the air cond!

Why, so your wife can meet you for dinner after a round. Not my cup of tea.

i dont care what you think, i dont enjoy being inside a building with no air when its 95 with high humidity

Agreed.  Old School charm is one thing,  old school B.O. is quite another....

[Dan Moore]

About 3-4 holes follow the original 1890's routing including 1 and 18.

[Jim Nugent]

Those of you who have played Chicago GC and St. Louis CC, which do you prefer? 

[PCCraig]

Those of you who have played Chicago GC and St. Louis CC, which do you prefer? 

While STLCC is a very neat golf course and has a ton[\i] of character, Chicago Golf is a much better course IMO.

[PThomas]

Those of you who have played Chicago GC and St. Louis CC, which do you prefer? 

While STLCC is a very neat golf course and has a ton[\i] of character, Chicago Golf is a much better course IMO.

but why Pat?

i asked this very same question months ago and got little if any feedback...I've played St Land thought it was terrific...i havent played Chicago but have walked it and wondered if the elevation changes at St L might give it an edge over CGC

[Jud_T]

Pat,

I thought you felt Chicago was overrated, or at least uninspiring.  Does that mean you think St. Louis is a dogtrack?    

[George Freeman]

Only 150 members - WOW. 

I believe the number is more like 120.

[TEPaul]

"Since the course was changed by Mr. Raynor in the 20s, I think you'll find no trouble recognizing the Road, Biarritz, Redan, Eden, Short, Cape, etc.  In the absence of elevation change, the 17th reminds me very much of the 10th at Muirfield."


Steve Salmen:

Are you suggesting that the club felt they had to bring Raynor in to clean up the mess Charlie made with the architecture there in 1895? Wasn't it Raynor who made that famous remark when he finally saw what Charlie had done at CGC----"It makes the very soul of golf shriek!"
 
 

[George Freeman]

The original, pre-1900 course did hug the boundary, but the 1925 revision does not ... I have played golf there numerous times and don't remember seeing anyone even close to going o.b., though I guess it is possible on a few of the holes with a massive hook.

The only hole that tracks closely to the OB line is #14.  All other perimeter holes tend to angle away from OB.  

Of course, I dead-pulled my tee shot on #14 and just lost it OB to the left.  So there you go, Tom.  It can be done!

CGC has some of the coolest, biggest, best contoured (etc, etc) greens I have ever seen.  It is a very special place.

[Steve Salmen]

Tom Paul,

I do not know what was around before Mr. Raynor did his work in the 1920s.  I intended to suggest that the golf course had had work done to it and was not CBM's original design.

It is not only possible, but likely that the Road, Biarritz, Cape, Redan, Eden, etc were all present before the work was done, just not in it's present form.

[PCCraig]

Pat,

I thought you felt Chicago was overrated, or at least uninspiring.  Does that mean you think St. Louis is a dogtrack?    

I do think CGC is overrated at #20 or so in the country, but it's still a great golf course! (I don't think I called it "uninspiring"...did I?) And unlike their baseball team, St. Louis CC is very good, hardly a dogtrack

As a side note, I stopped wearing my red STLCC after a fellow Cubs fan yelled at me in a bar "go home Cardinals fan!!!"...I did a 360* turn looking for the Cards fan before I figured out he was talking to me

Paul:

I'm not an expert on either CGC or STLCC, having played one twice and another once. Sure STLCC has some elevation change, some very unique greensites (the punchbowl alone is worth admission), but Chicago is such a pure example of the MacRaynor template style and I found it is an even great achievement how great the course is considering how flat and "uninspiring" ( ) the property is.

[V. Kmetz]

All,

Thank you for the volume of info - I had a suspicion that the reasons were a combination of the things I posted.

I suppose the point that Steve S. last made with regards to what was there before the Raynor renovations (until this thread I did not know that Raynor was the one) is the one that is most interesting to me:  e.g., was there the idea of the "Template" British holes in CBM's arsenal at the time of design:

The picture of the map of CBM's Chicago Golf club  - posted last Spring by someone - puts doubt in my mind that Charlie, coming out of the "Dark ages" as he called them, was thinking to copy many of them yet. 

For this map - and its only a static map - seems to yield a very "steeplechase" kind of course that was a part of this 1890s design period.  There is what seems to be an "Alps" design for CBM's old 11th green, which it appears was a double green complex shared with the old routing's 8th (current 14th green/15th tee).  also that little par 3 over the water - which was CBMs' 9th and I think today's 10th - may be a copy of a Short - which i'm assuming it is today as well.

so from a google Earth perspective...am I correct in saying that these are the Template holes as Raynor grafted them onto the property.

1.  Same Routing - don't know if it WAS a template or not
2.  Road
3.  Biarritz
4.  Long
5.  ?
6.  Double Plateau? (looks like it has a Spectacles bunker about 300 from the tee)
7.  Redan
8.  ?
9.  Knoll? - it's mid size with a bunkerless green, whose fairway pond intrudes and forces play from the left...
10. Short
11. Cape
12. ?
13. Eden
14. ?
15. ?
16. ?
17. Punchbowl?
18. ?

Lastly can someone tell me in a few steps how to take a picture rom off my computer and put it into a post as this?

when i hit insert image and the two HTML brackets come up...what goes between them?

cheers

vk

[Jud_T]

VK-try inserting a link from this hosting site:

http://tinypic.com/?t=postupload

[Steve Salmen]

V,

Not to split hairs, but I think 12 is more of a punchbowl green than 17.

[Bill_McBride]

V,

Not to split hairs, but I think 12 is more of a punchbowl green than 17.

Agree.  There is so much going on around that little hill.

[Chip Gaskins]

I played Chicago Golf a few years ago.  I played with Bill Shean who is an absolute wealth of knowledge and a joy to experience CGC with.  Its in my top 5 right behind Cypress.  Best MacRaynor I have played!

According to Bill none of the whole are actually "named" as many of MacRaynor courses are...but:
#5 is Levin
#12 is Punchbowl
#14 is actually Cape
#17 is supposedly Alps

Here is an old thread on it: http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40753.msg859809/#msg859809

[V. Kmetz]

test
[/img]

[V. Kmetz]

[V. Kmetz]

here's the google earth one...
today's course

[V. Kmetz]

whoops

[Chip Gaskins]

V Kmetz

Is that the picture I took of the routing hanging in the clubhouse?  Did it come from my Flickr site?

[V. Kmetz]

i have no idea Chip...it was on this board and I saved it soem tiem ago to my computer

i hope i havent done anything wrong and i'll take it down if there's a problem

cheers

vk

[Chip Gaskins]

no no, you are fine. i just thought it was my old pic. i remembered the perfect yellow flash circle on it.

[V. Kmetz]

probably...then.

what a great photo - glowing orb and all - i would love to spend the remaining years of my life working on big Golf maps like that, like the kinds of gatefold maps available in miniature in the back of Wind's anthology The Complete Golfer.

The drawing style and the fonts make it feel like a map of Gettysburg or something like that

Beyond giving us information about the pre 1921 Chicago GC, it's just a great thing to behold.

cheers

vk

[Bill_McBride]

That was Macdonald's original Muirfield-style routing, with all the OOB left, favoring his typical ball flight, left to right.  What a competitor!

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