[Brett_Morrissy]

In raising our two children, my wife and I were interested to read a book titled, "why first borns rule the world and last borns want to change it"
Examples of the eldest children in families are JFK and Winston Churchill...
Examples of the youngest in the family are Martin Luther King, Mahatma Gandhi...

First borns tend to be conservative, traditional, perfectionists, high achievers, detailed people and rule keepers amongst much more,

Last borns tend to be risk takers, ideas people,  creative, charmers and challenge authority.

I am curious to do this very basic pole of our architects on this DB - are you first or last - there are plenty of other categories, but these two are the most prominent.

Are the GCA's that do not take risks belong to the first Borns, but have great reputations, have built strong successful businesses, and are intense about what they do?
Are those with a more rebellious nature, changing the industry, or trying to change the industry, producing unique creative work?

And what of the Golden Agers, was Dr. Mackenzie the oldest, CB Mac, Tilly - what about Bobby jones,  or Pete Dye, Jack Nicklaus, or Greg Norman?

Nothing concrete here of course, and may lead to further discussion on those looking to the rebellious nature of golf course design, or those not wanting to ruffle feathers - are some architects better suited to remodeling, some to brand new virgin land, some to dealing with private clubs and greens committees, and some to high level entrepreneurs and developers - strictly because of their natures?

Interested in your thoughts.
BM  

[Forrest Richardson]

Interesting question. I often try and figure out my wife (pointless) as she is the middle of three girls.

Anyway...not to be outdone; I am an only child, yet have a half brother ten years older and step sister who is nearly exactly my same age. Weird.

I think it means something.

[Tom_Doak]

Brett,

I am sure that birth order makes a difference in many people's lives, but I am not sure you can make such a clean divide.

Alister MacKenzie was the oldest of five children, and Pete Dye the younger of two, but I think of them both as innovators.

[john_stiles]

Joe  Kennedy was the first born but the second born did rule the country.  
First born Joe,  JFK's hero,  was killed in dangerous WWII air mission.

Not sure that message, first borns rule, and last want to change it, would apply to GCA.

Do those who want to change it, not also want to rule,  by changing all before them ?

[Neil_Crafter]

Male and female?

[Forrest Richardson]

Aussie...what are you asking?...Please be specific.

[Neil_Crafter]

My desert friend
They are the two main types of architects that I know anyway. Do you know of others? Neuters?

[Forrest Richardson]

There are six:  Men, Women, ASGCA members, "Lava-Lamp-Retro-ers", wacky Desomond-ers, Technicians, and PGA Professionals. Of this group, 76% use urinals and 20% use sit-down toilets. A few pee in the rushes.

[john_stiles]

Forest,

How are you related to Mike Young ?

[Ian Andrew]

Last of three

[Tom MacWood]

An interesting theory.

[Forrest Richardson]

Mike Young is neither my half brother or my step sister, at least that I know of.

[Tim Nugent]

Last of 3, Dad is the oldest - interesting, hmmmm

[Mike_Young]

What???
This might be the most confusing thread I have seen on here in a long time....
What is three of a kind???
And I am surely not related to Forrest or anyone out west....you know we don't get to travel that far down here in Ga...

But I only know of two kinds of architects...
Those that post on here...
And those that don't....
And that is probably the largest distinction in architects that I know of...

[Steve Lang]

 

those alive, those not

those working, those not

[Forrest Richardson]

Those working, those not.

That is a pice chart with a very small sliver of pie!

[Peter Pallotta]

I see it in every area and profession of life - those who figure out the status quo and try to become a successful part of it; and those who see the status quo as lacking and try to forge a new and better way. 

The former is the easier path, and the most common -- but can lead to ennui no matter the success achieved. The latter is a struggle, ending sometimes in bitterness and frustration but sometimes in true satisfaction.

Makes no difference though, i.e. I've never met anyone who really had a choice in what path they took.

Peter

[Steve Okula]

There are two kinds of people in the world; those that divide the world into two kinds of people, and those that don't.

[Melvyn Morrow]

At times some of us wish there wasn’t any having seen some of the newish course photos

The question comes to mind is there any design intent or is THAT REALLY WHAT THE CLIENT WANTED?


I do not believe a designer worth his salt would want to claim title let alone credit for some designs and perhaps that is what Tom Doak’s means when he is not keen for designers to be known or listed against each course.

There is nothing wrong providing a client with what he wants, as long as you, the designers has confirmed that the design was to the clients specification and has gone against your advice or recommendations. A great consultant once told me to give the client what he wanted but have the balls to say if he does not like or agree, then state in writing to the client that the following plans are not the responsibilities of your design company.  Many clients may then realise that they are paying for advice but totally ignoring it so have accepted full design intent for their own projects. Its quite surprising how many then start to listen. Mind you , you do risk losing a client but as my old friend went on to say ‘do you really want or can you afford to have the likes of these people as your clients ‘.

Always give the client the benefit of your experience and if he walks away, think yourselves lucky as a compromised design is another ‘Blot on the Landscape’ but with your name firmly placed upon it. The Client is not the only one who can say NO and that’s my type of Designers/Architect     


So let’s hope there are Architects out there that care about their reputation more so than just money.

Melvyn


PS Then we have architects that include cart paths within in their designs, but thankfully they have been excommunicated but have not as yet heard the news (may be part of Ran’s cull)

[Tom_Doak]

Melvyn,

I wish you would stop misrepresenting things I say. What I've said about credit is that "whodunit" is a matter which might be argued on many projects today, and it would be impossible to apply the standard you desire retroactively, so there would be no consistency no matter how much you want it.

As to birth order, I am the oldest of two.  I guess that explains why I am an establishment guy just trying to fit into the status quo. 

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