Does Firm and Fast conditions actually cost MORE than lush green?

[Jake Straub]

I'll add my two cents, on this topic.  First I agree with others (TD and AN) on the topic that trying to maintain bentgrass and poa in the Mid Atlantic region under F & F conditions is going to cost money.   To this point I think F & F depends on turf types and soil conditions.  

One thing that I noticed this summer was the courses that got "banged up" in the Mid Atlantic region if they still had older bentgrasses like the old "South German" bents or Penncross they seemed to heal much quicker than the newer bentgrasses.   I think that the newer bentgrasses are much more upright in growth habit which means either more water to keep everything alive or more bare spots to play through to achieve F & F conditions.  Think about it this way older creeping bentgrasses may have 1 to 2 plants taking up a 3" X 3"  space and the newer bentgrasses may have 3 to 5 plants taking up the same area.  Do the math on how to keep that many more plants alive and I think you have your answer for the Mid Atlantic Region.  Granted this is all in IMHO, based on many site visits this summer to multiple courses.

[Kyle Harris]

I'll add my two cents, on this topic.  First I agree with others (TD and AN) on the topic that trying to maintain bentgrass and poa in the Mid Atlantic region under F & F conditions is going to cost money.   To this point I think F & F depends on turf types and soil conditions.  

One thing that I noticed this summer was the courses that got "banged up" in the Mid Atlantic region if they still had older bentgrasses like the old "South German" bents or Penncross they seemed to heal much quicker than the newer bentgrasses.   I think that the newer bentgrasses are much more upright in growth habit which means either more water to keep everything alive or more bare spots to play through to achieve F & F conditions.  Think about it this way older creeping bentgrasses may have 1 to 2 plants taking up a 3" X 3"  space and the newer bentgrasses may have 3 to 5 plants taking up the same area.  Do the math on how to keep that many more plants alive and I think you have your answer for the Mid Atlantic Region.  Granted this is all in IMHO, based on many site visits this summer to multiple courses.

Jake,

Very interesting observation considering that Penncross has lately gotten a rather bad name for heat and drought tolerance.

http://www.ntep.org/data/bt08g/bt08g_10-1/bt08g10t03a.txt

[TEPaul]

Anthony Nysse:

Most interestingly, the one I consider to be the originator of Firm and Fast conditions and playability on a significant INLAND American course, particularly "through the green," HVGC's Scott Anderson, claims he has a very old irrigation system and he even has semi-bragged over the years that he likes it that way!!

[Tom_Doak]

Tom P,

I'm not sure if it is still true, but years ago at Muirfield they told me they had NO automatic irrigation on the greens.  They had a single row system in the fairways, but if you wanted to water the greens you had to do it by hand.

Two reasons why:

1.  You've got to REALLY want to water to irrigate your greens by hand.

2.  You can't do them all at once, so you have to do deep and infrequent irrigation.


Of course that wouldn't work on Poa in Philly.

[Jake Straub]

Jake,
 
Very interesting observation considering that Penncross has lately gotten a rather bad name for heat and drought tolerance.
 
http://www.ntep.org/data/bt08g/bt08g_10-1/bt08g10t03a.txt

Kyle, 
 
thanks for the information....I am just saying that from what I saw late this summer and fall during the recovery period in the Mid Atlantic, Penncross seemed to heal and fill in better.  Lets be honest the older bents run laterally much more than newer bent varieties.  With that being said, you don't see many new courses with Penncross either.  So if a golf course still has Penncross it's probably not the first time it has gone through something like this kind of summer. 

[Don_Mahaffey]

F & F on poa probably costs more. Its a wimpy grass and you have to baby it, even more so if your trying to present a fast course.

F & F on bermuda DOES NOT have to costs more. But, if you can't have a brown piece of grass then yeah, you'll spend a lot of money.

F & F on bermuda when only playability matters, and I mean good playability with tight, dense turf, does not have to cost more.

Don

Thanks for the info...

I was about to post and say can you even really have bermuda play firm and fast.  Is that a playing condition only truly available on fescues....however you posted what you did above.  So now my question is, what is brown bermuda?  I thought brown bermuda in the winter was called dormant and brown bermuda in the summer was called dead.  Can you really get bermuda in the summer to play F & F?  Honest question, love to hear some of the courses that fit this description.  I would love to go play them.

I don't think you find many fast bermuda courses because it’s not a priority at those courses. It can be done but it takes a radically different agronomic plan then the normal way bermuda is managed.

Let me give you an idea of what I mean by radically different. First, you need to understand that with bermuda the challenge to firm and fast is too much grass. That is the case with many grasses, but especially so with bermuda. However, we turf managers are taught to take soil samples and tissue samples and work hard to give the plant what it needs to be healthy. Healthy bermuda is not a great firm fast golfing surface. In fact I'd go so far as to say firm fast bermuda should be grown in "poverty" soils. That right there flies in the face of most everything we are taught. This is one case where I don't want a lot of help from mother nature because bermuda is not naturally a golfing turf like a fescue. I want my bermuda hungry, lean, thirsty, and spoon fed just enough food and water to provide the surface I need for good golf. I do anymore than that and I spend all my time on vertical mowers, sweepers, blowers, spraying growth regulators and lord knows what else as I'm trying to get rid of all the growth I just spurned on with a traditional approach to warm season management.

[Kyle Harris]

Jake,
 
Very interesting observation considering that Penncross has lately gotten a rather bad name for heat and drought tolerance.
 
http://www.ntep.org/data/bt08g/bt08g_10-1/bt08g10t03a.txt

Kyle, 
 
thanks for the information....I am just saying that from what I saw late this summer and fall during the recovery period in the Mid Atlantic, Penncross seemed to heal and fill in better.  Lets be honest the older bents run laterally much more than newer bent varieties.  With that being said, you don't see many new courses with Penncross either.  So if a golf course still has Penncross it's probably not the first time it has gone through something like this kind of summer. 

Jake:

I agree on all fronts, especially with the first hand stuff we both saw this summer.

You'll notice a lot of that NTEP data has some higher-than-usual Nitrogen rates. Here at Rutgers they're using 5-7#/M!

[Chris Tritabaugh]

I don't think you find many fast bermuda courses because it’s not a priority at those courses. It can be done but it takes a radically different agronomic plan then the normal way bermuda is managed.

Let me give you an idea of what I mean by radically different. First, you need to understand that with bermuda the challenge to firm and fast is too much grass. That is the case with many grasses, but especially so with bermuda. However, we turf managers are taught to take soil samples and tissue samples and work hard to give the plant what it needs to be healthy. Healthy bermuda is not a great firm fast golfing surface. In fact I'd go so far as to say firm fast bermuda should be grown in "poverty" soils. That right there flies in the face of most everything we are taught. This is one case where I don't want a lot of help from mother nature because bermuda is not naturally a golfing turf like a fescue. I want my bermuda hungry, lean, thirsty, and spoon fed just enough food and water to provide the surface I need for good golf. I do anymore than that and I spend all my time on vertical mowers, sweepers, blowers, spraying growth regulators and lord knows what else as I'm trying to get rid of all the growth I just spurned on with a traditional approach to warm season management.

Don,
I think the very same can be said about bentgrass in the north. Bent is generally given everything it needs and then some when in fact, much like fescue it is able to get most of what it needs on its own. Just like bermuda, when bent is fat and happy then comes the need for all the other things you mention. I have to chuckle when I hear something like this; "I wish there was some way I could get my clippings under control? I am spraying primo at the high rate every week and still struggling with clippings." Said while checking to see when the next monthly granular app is due to be applied.

[Chip Gaskins]

F & F on poa probably costs more. Its a wimpy grass and you have to baby it, even more so if your trying to present a fast course.

F & F on bermuda DOES NOT have to costs more. But, if you can't have a brown piece of grass then yeah, you'll spend a lot of money.

F & F on bermuda when only playability matters, and I mean good playability with tight, dense turf, does not have to cost more.

Don

Thanks for the info...

I was about to post and say can you even really have bermuda play firm and fast.  Is that a playing condition only truly available on fescues....however you posted what you did above.  So now my question is, what is brown bermuda?  I thought brown bermuda in the winter was called dormant and brown bermuda in the summer was called dead.  Can you really get bermuda in the summer to play F & F?  Honest question, love to hear some of the courses that fit this description.  I would love to go play them.

I don't think you find many fast bermuda courses because it’s not a priority at those courses. It can be done but it takes a radically different agronomic plan then the normal way bermuda is managed.

Let me give you an idea of what I mean by radically different. First, you need to understand that with bermuda the challenge to firm and fast is too much grass. That is the case with many grasses, but especially so with bermuda. However, we turf managers are taught to take soil samples and tissue samples and work hard to give the plant what it needs to be healthy. Healthy bermuda is not a great firm fast golfing surface. In fact I'd go so far as to say firm fast bermuda should be grown in "poverty" soils. That right there flies in the face of most everything we are taught. This is one case where I don't want a lot of help from mother nature because bermuda is not naturally a golfing turf like a fescue. I want my bermuda hungry, lean, thirsty, and spoon fed just enough food and water to provide the surface I need for good golf. I do anymore than that and I spend all my time on vertical mowers, sweepers, blowers, spraying growth regulators and lord knows what else as I'm trying to get rid of all the growth I just spurned on with a traditional approach to warm season management.

Don

Can you name a few courses that maintain their bermuda like this?  I would love to go see/play them.  I was under the assumption that we could never have a real links style, firm and fast (one that you have to bounce the approach shots in) course that used bermuda grasses.  Sounds like you are saying that is possible, its just that none/few actually choose to do it.

[Don_Mahaffey]

We do it at Wolf Point. Sure weather dictates how fast the course is and during the hot, humid t-storm season the course slows, but when we're dry WP plays fast.
I've heard Seminole plays fast. Also think the Aussie sandbelt courses play fast but I haven't ever played them so I'll need help with that claim.
Basic problem is fast bermuda is not an even shade of green and color often takes priority over playability.

I was working with my son on chip shots on our 16th green yesterday and he could not hold the green with out landing short and running up to the hole. Greens were rolling about 10. The green does fall away a bit and it was down wind, but it was firm and fast.