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TEPaul

Re: The latest outrage from Riviera
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2002, 04:32:03 AM »
I can't resist "Restauration" either! Actually, I can--the only thing I really can't resist is temptation!

Anyway, the "restaurantization" of Riviera already took place in Watanabe's $12mil clubhouse redo, and was described by Ms Marzolf as "restaurantization", among other things, in her press release describing the ongoing glories of all that Riviera is.

When Ms Marzolf graduated to the golf course redesign part of press releasing she obviously elided a letter out of her rather clever description of the clubhouse on her word processor and thought "restauration" looked quite sophisticated and upscale, certainly apropos of all that's been planned to Thomas's grand golf course and very much a cute wrinkle that GeorgeT would notice and be amused by when they "welcomed him home" during the 2008 US Open!

Either that or Ms Marzolf is clueless on golf course architecture! At this point I only wish it did refer to a paper napkin rendering for the golf course (ala some of Pete Dye's best ideas), as a paper napkin rendering may have been far better for Riviera (and Thomas's "welcoming home") than what the present tag-team has planned!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The latest outrage from Riviera
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2002, 04:59:40 AM »
TEPaul:

I truly doubt Ms. Marzoff meant "restauration" because it
looked quite sophisticated and upscale. ::)

More likely than not, Ms. Marzolf is just clueless on golf course architecture. :'(
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Richard_Goodale

Re: The latest outrage from Riviera
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2002, 05:46:20 AM »
Messieurs

Mme. Marzoff was being tres, tres chic.  "Restauration" is "restoration" en francais.

M. Bonnebiere

PS--"restaurant" means "restoring."  "Restaurantization" means "restoringization."  Tres droll, mais tres bizarre, aussi. :o
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: The latest outrage from Riviera
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2002, 06:31:34 AM »
Well, it's tres chic alright on a Paris dinning table and also tres dense [<Lat. dens(us) thick] on a LA golf course!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Geoff_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The latest outrage from Riviera
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2002, 06:49:10 AM »
Now, now, let's try to get our people right before we laugh at their Freudian slips. Tom Marzolf (most definitely a male) is the architect involved, Ms. Moraghan (most definitely a female) is shilling for Riviera and the USGA and calling the redesign a restauration in her press packet page of beautiful glossy photos of the work (I swear, this page of pictures could double for Bethpage!).

But I can't help but think you are all onto something, the fast food style of the restoration work makes it worthy of a mailed in, back-of-the-cocktail-napkin chain restaurant inspired concept. Yes, it's a restAUration from now on...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The latest outrage from Riviera
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2002, 06:49:29 AM »
Is it Ms. Marzolf, or Ms. Moraghan? or is this just another way to get cheap shots in?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris_Clouser

Re: The latest outrage from Riviera
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2002, 07:52:59 AM »
I think everyone on this board should sit down with a copy of the Captain and of Thomas' book and look at each hole when they describe the restoration process on that hole and see what doesn't match up.  It would be quite a game.  I will probably watch a little of the tournament with my dad this weekend and I will have both books in hand to show him what I talk about when I say something is "bad" architecture.  I personally am going to watch some of the action just to see all the junk Fazio and his group have done to the course.

For those of you who might have adverse reactions please don't forget the kleenex for the tears and for those with violent reactions, bring your buckets.  Thank you for playing along
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

johnk

Re: The latest outrage from Riviera
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2002, 10:35:01 AM »
Today's LATimes article is actually a more balanced view.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/golf/la-000011168feb13.story?coll=la-headlines-sports-golf

This is a PR battle.  Note how Geoff S. is subtly cast as a John Cleese type zealot in a blue plaid jacket for previously criticizing changes to Augusta.  The club will win this one.  Note at the end we see that the reporter is waiting for the better players to pass judgement.

Geoff, didn't you used to work for Fazio?  I'm surprised they didn't tag you as a disgruntled ex-employee :)

I like Chris' suggestion of watching with "The Captain" in hand.

Also, to one of Geoff's original points, with the course playing dry and fast, this will be a great PGA event in any case.  Last year's was one of the most fun to watch since the weather provided actual challenge to the best players...

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The latest outrage from Riviera
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2002, 11:18:47 AM »
Geoff, if I were you, (and I don't have anything to loose  ;) ) I would find a blue tartan blazer like Cleese wears in those commercials, and get a fake moustache and take a picket sign stating "Vandalism" and "the ball goes too far" out to those Fazio bunkers along #8 and have as much fun as you can until the cops show up  :o
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The latest outrage from Riviera
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2002, 11:39:43 AM »
Why is the LA Times shilling for Riviera?  That is what I do not get.  I will admit to being a hick from Michigan, but I would have thought that a paper as well renown as the LA Times would be supporting the traditionalists, not painting them as kooks.  Has anyone on the LA Times staff been to Inverness.  It is one of the best 15 hole golf courses in the world but the work of Fazio is at best an abortion.  A fair-minded piece might have said, "Shackelford and anyone else with eyesight and a brain has ripped Fazio's work at Inverness."  They make it seem like he is on his own in those criticisms.  I guess I am just too dumb to grasp the reasons for the LA Times agenda but it sure is clear what it is.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Brad Miller

Re: The latest outrage from Riviera
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2002, 11:46:36 AM »
PR, Spin, $$, just wait till the TV guys start talking about it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: The latest outrage from Riviera
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2002, 12:13:33 PM »
The LA Times article makes me happy that at least here in Philadelphia, Joe Logan attempted to provide a balanced report of the very similar Merion  "restauration" in the Philly Inquirer a few months back.  Yes, he told the club's story and spin, but he also quoted various critics, as well as quite eloquently stated the views of the preservationists.

Where else would the line, "artificial, puffy, and upholstered" appear in national print?? :)  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

johnk

Re: The latest outrage from Riviera
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2002, 12:26:34 PM »

It's not at all a PR battle to convince the public that what was done is sound golf architecture.  They could care less about that.  

The battle is about convincing the USGA that Riviera is an ideal site, using the approved architects, and getting approval from top players, announcers on TV and key pundits.  That will translate into money.

Having Geoff S. quoted in the LA Times, criticizing the work probably helps Riviera achieve it's goals with the USGA...  


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The latest outrage from Riviera
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2002, 12:35:02 PM »
Mike, blatant plagiarism!  Have one of those Philadelphia lawyers make some use of themselves and sue the ba$^rds!  ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

TEPaul

Re: The latest outrage from Riviera
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2002, 12:35:31 PM »
Sorry Ms Marzolf, I meant to say Ms M! Does Ms M have a press packet for Torrey Pines 2 too--or should I say too 2?

Gulph Mills is spending a nice Philadelpia sum of money (conservative naturally) for some work from Gil Hanse. I think we'd like to call it a "restauration" as well! Do you think we could get one of those clever press packets from Ms M to send to our membership?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The latest outrage from Riviera
« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2002, 01:27:12 PM »
the LA Times article:
(first half)

RIVIERA GOES RETRO
Hoping to Attract 2008 U.S. Open, Six Holes Are Modified to Capture Original Design and Challenge the Modern Player
By DAVID WHARTON, TIMES STAFF WRITER

Tucked away in Riviera Country Club's grand, rambling clubhouse, up a flight of stairs from the ornate lobby, is a small room lined with shelves. Not much more than a closet, it holds sketches, photographs and artifacts from a dimly recalled past.

Black-and-white pictures show an unusual double fairway on the eighth hole and a long bunker guarding the left side of the seventh, elements washed away in a 1939 flood. Old drawings illustrate original greens long since eroded or modified.

When the club embarked on a mission to polish its faded reputation--pining for the days of Ben Hogan and Sam Snead--this archival storeroom was the first stop. "Looking at those photographs, we decided to restore part of the original design," said Michael Yamaki, the club's corporate officer. Then they went a step further. Or, some say, in another direction.

They sought to update the layout, lengthening and toughening several holes to accommodate the modern player who hits the ball longer and straighter than Hogan might ever have imagined.

Club executives hope this $1.3-million project, which involved six holes, will help them in their bid to host the 2008 U.S. Open. At the same time, however, they have heard grumbling from a noted golf historian who likens their work to "putting a mustache on the Mona Lisa."

The first true test comes this week when the PGA Tour arrives for the Nissan Open beginning Thursday. Everyone involved--including officials who award the U.S. Open--will be watching.

"Any time you do anything to a course like this, there are people who want to criticize," head pro Todd Yoshitake said. "We're interested to see what the pros say."

The pros started all this.

Never mind the stately eucalyptus and sycamores, or the folklore surrounding "Hogan's Alley." In 1995, the Tour came to Riviera for the PGA Championship and handed the club a very public embarrassment, players ridiculing the greens. A Japanese corporation that had taken ownership a few years earlier decided that changes had to be made.

First came a renewed effort to improve turf conditions. Next, Riviera began working with Fazio Golf Course Designers, one of the so-called "Open doctors" known for helping courses get selected for the U.S. Open.

Tom Marzolf, a senior design associate with the North Carolina-based firm, was aware of the course's heritage but did not expect to find so much documentation. Aerial photos chronicled the work of George C. Thomas, the original designer, and the effect of storm waters that overflowed the famed barranca, badly damaging several holes.

"You could see all the intricacies of the bunkering," Marzolf said. "The subtleties of the landing areas, the contours, the elevated greens."

The depth of old hazards could be gauged by shadow lines on photographs. Details were such that when workmen began digging to re-create the lost bunker along No. 7, they hit sandy remnants of its long-buried predecessor.

Modernizing the course was not as straightforward.

Marzolf pored over newspaper accounts of past tournaments, looking for clues about which clubs players used from various lies. Yoshitake called upon Snead and others to compare how the course played before technological advances in clubs and balls.

On the ninth hole, which once required caution, most of today's players could easily carry the fairway bunker. On second shots where Hogan might have hit a four-iron, big hitters now pulled a nine from their bags.

"We wanted today's players to hit the same club as the great players of the past," Marzolf said. "We wanted to put that four-iron back in their hands."

The designer had numerous conversations with club executives about how this might be accomplished. The United States Golf Assn., which oversees the U.S. Open, also got into the act, touring the course and commenting on "the good, the bad and the ugly," as a USGA spokesman put it.

All the while, everyone realized that any changes might spark a controversy reminiscent of a 1940s party in the main ballroom where Errol Flynn tried to pick up another man's wife and was arrested.

"We wanted to keep the integrity of the course," Yamaki said. "How do you do that? I guess everyone has a different opinion."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The latest outrage from Riviera
« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2002, 01:27:39 PM »
LA Times article: (continued)

The most dramatic changes were made to holes that border the barranca, the ones that took the brunt of the epic storm.

On No. 7, the humped fairway is now guarded by the restored penal bunker on the left and the barranca on the right. A shot to either side will find trouble.

On No. 8, workers added 46 yards and re-created the obliterated right half of the split fairway. Players can still go left, choosing to lay up in front of a bunker or try a power fade, leaving a wedge to the green. The right side leaves a shorter iron shot.

"Depending on the pin placement, the golfer now has a better angle with which to approach the green, which has been slightly enlarged to accept such shots," Yoshitake said.

In Tuesday's practice rounds, the tee for the eighth hole was at its farthest point, some 462 yards, so the right fairway was the one the players used.

"If it were up some, it might make a difference," Brent Geiberger said. "But with the tee all the way back, the play is to the right fairway."

The official length for the eighth is 433 yards, but unless the weather changes, it's likely the pros are going to play the hole from its longest point.

On No. 13, the tee has been lowered and the barranca comes back into play, guarding the left side and the newly extended back portion of the green.

Along the way, designers also added as much as 50 yards to Nos. 9 and 12, where Humphrey Bogart used to watch tournaments leaning against a sycamore and sipping from what the late Times columnist Jim Murray referred to as "a Thermos filled with God knows what." The tee on No. 5 was returned to the top of a small hill, which brings the wind into play and asks most golfers to hit a slight fade rather than a draw.

Yoshitake downplays the recent work, saying Riviera is known for its variety, notably the pot bunker in the middle of the sixth green and the blind tee shot on No. 18. He refers to new additions as "polishing the jewel."

But he gets an argument from Geoff Shackelford, who has written two books about designer Thomas and the club's history. An unapologetic traditionalist, Shackelford has spoken out against modifications to courses such as Augusta National, Inverness and Oak Hill.

"I've seen good restorations and bad ones," he said. "Riviera just didn't do a good job of fitting features in."

In particular, he criticizes the enlarged green on No. 13 and a new, crowned front on No. 8. He says that when No. 7 had its original bunker, the fairway was not humped, so there wasn't as much risk of bouncing into sand or barranca.

The historian sees the modifications as part of a trend: As stronger players with better equipment manhandle older courses, as scores dip lower and lower, clubs react by stretching their holes. They add gimmicks that force players to lay up, thus nudging the leaderboard back toward par.

The victim in all this, he says, is strategy. Designs are thrown out of whack as length takes precedence over classic quirks, those tricky situations where a golfer must choose between playing it safe or going for broke.

"Tour players just hit it dead straight," he said. "You don't see decision-making and you don't see shot shaping. It's just not as interesting."

Club executives, he believes, could have taken a less-invasive approach to their U.S. Open bid.

"They could say this is Riviera, this is Hogan's Alley," he said. "They could add some back tees and grow the rough everything would be fine."

The USGA will not decide on a site for the 2008 Open until its executive committee reconvenes in June. With Torrey Pines also in the running, the decision could be delayed until fall. But with the pros rarely hesitant to voice their opinions about playing conditions, Riviera should get an idea of where it stands this weekend.

Several lesser-known players, participating in Monday's invitational pro-am, gave high marks. The big names had yet to arrive.

"That's something I'll be holding my breath about," Yamaki said.

Marzolf will be on hand, charting shots, gauging whether the course plays the way he envisioned. Sitting down for a conversation with Shackelford at an industry convention in Florida last week, he is open to criticism. "It's OK to have different thoughts on the course," he said.

Maybe the only people who will not openly express themselves are club members who know they can be unilaterally expelled. A few years ago, a one-time greens committee chairman was kicked out after complaining to a golf magazine about maintenance practices.

Yoshitake insisted he has heard mostly raves from his membership. Sitting in the club's elegant dining room, nursing a soda, he pointed out that Thomas returned several years after the course's 1927 opening and tinkered with holes, adding a new twist here, a bunker there.

"The problem is, he passed away," Yoshitake said. "Who's to say that he might not have come back and done something else."

In his absence, club executives and modern designers took it upon themselves to interpret his intentions. The archives, locked away in an upstairs room, provided a research tool and inspiration.

The black-and-white photos reveal what Riviera once was, the first course west of the Mississippi selected to host an Open in 1948. The architectural sketches hearken to an era when Hogan referred to No. 4 as the "greatest par three in America," when the pros ranked this layout among the nation's best.

"I think people are confused about why we did this," Yoshitake said. "We love this golf course. We're looking for that respect."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Lynn Shackelford

Re: The latest outrage from Riviera
« Reply #42 on: February 13, 2002, 06:08:02 PM »
A couple of thoughts and comments.

Don't ponder too long about the Los Angeles Times.  It has declined considerably in the past few years.  It has never been too interested in golf, in Los Angeles we have never had a Joe Logan, not since I started reading it in 1962.

The sports editor is getting too old to play tennis and I believe has taken up golf, so things might change a bit.

Yes, I got the feeling the story was Geoff's opinion versus slick PR campaign.  Good luck Geoff!

And doesn't the fact that they are waiting for the opinions of the "big name" players just about sum up all the grips on this website.
"Asking a golf pro for advice on design of golf course is like asking a hooker for advice on your marriage."  Sam Snead
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

spdb1

Re: The latest outrage from Riviera
« Reply #43 on: February 13, 2002, 07:32:11 PM »
I know it is an insignificant in light of the larger problems at work,

but was it Ms. Moraghan, as Geoff wrote, or Marzolf, as others contended.

just curious.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: The latest outrage from Riviera
« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2002, 07:37:09 PM »
In Philly, Golf has it's Buddy's Marruci's, where as in Los Angeles, we are gifted with Todd Yoshitake.

If anyone dares a visit to Riviera and has a love of golf courses, this is in FACT, the second timeless masterpiece, in less then a year to be destroyed by the Fazio Organization.

Sean, none of this has to do with attacking character of friends, it has everything to do with attacking the most simplist common sense that the game--in this case the course's themselves have to offer.

In the next days you all will see the attempts by Todd Yoshitake/Tom Marzloff at classic golf course restoration. If after seeing the pictures aren't enough, then you aren't being subjectively critical to recognize what exactly is being placed in front of you.

Go ahead and beleive the puff peices that you are reading from LA Times staff writers that don't even know who George Thomas is, let alone write about it.

For those of us that love this game, no matter if you are a purist or not, this is simply a crime that should never be overlooked, espeically the people responsible. Emperor Wantanabe, Todd Yoshitake, Tom Marzloff, and the man whose name is on the final product--Tom Fazio.

Stay tuned, because you have the unique opportunity of seeing one of Golf's great courses be destroyed right in front of your very eyes, right here on Golf Club Atlas.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The latest outrage from Riviera
« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2002, 07:41:50 PM »
Good to know we've coined a new term, "restauration." Tommy Naccarato just sent me some images of the new alternate 8th fairway at Riviera - with a turfed ramp leading up to it, no doubt to provide easy access for golf carts. Amazing stuff.

Shackleford's point in the Golf World essay - and I think it interesting that Ron Whitten couldn't bring himself to utter anything critical of people in power - is that as bad and clumsy as the restauration of Riviera is, the real fault resides with the USGA for having ducked on the issue for years. Frank Thomas was, in my view, asleep at the wheel for a decade, testing golf balls at 109 mph (with a steel shaft and persimmon head) while the golf ball manufactureres were smart enough to build a ball that in the process of conforming to that (obsolete) testing standard flew out of sight when struck at 125+ mph with graphite shaft and a titanium head. That's as much the culprit as this or that clumsy course redo.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The latest outrage from Riviera
« Reply #46 on: February 14, 2002, 12:35:49 AM »
Lynn and Geoff,

Sorry to hear what is going on at your end of the world.  I thought your quote from Sam Snead was spot on.  I cannot believe that the club are using the club pro as the PR man for the job let alone advise on the design.

This reminds about what happened at Paraparamu last year when Hux got in touch.  By the sounds of things the pro had a lot to say there as well....and look what happened...

Jeremy Turner an architect who I work with a lot here in Norway once said to me that if the pro's come to his courses and say that they don't like the design then he takes that as a compliment because most of them haven't a clue what they are talking about and don't care about architecture.

We have a young touring pro here in Norway that has said he wants to become an architect when he has finished playing, he was asked which his favourite courses are and two of them were The Belfry and Valderama!!  Awful...awful strategic courses.  That tends to sum up what a pro wants these days ...target golf.  

It makes me chuckle when a club like Riviera has problems with changes.  Just to think that back in the 20's The Doctor wrote about how he detested green commitees,  now the power is taken away from commitees and put in the hands of businessmen (or owners) who probably don't even like golf but are using this to bump up the price of the course when they sell after the US Open.  At least green commitees were golfers...

Good luck....

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Geoff Shackelford

Re: The latest outrage from Riviera
« Reply #47 on: February 14, 2002, 06:38:55 AM »
Brian,
The pro should not be blamed too much, he's just one of many opinions in the design mix along with the consulting superintendent, the superintendent, USGA staff members Meeks and Moraghan, the architect, the ownership, and even a lawyer who takes credit for most of the work. And none are basing their opinions on knowledge or expertise in the field of classic course restoration. Because if they were, they wouldn't be able to look at the work and praise themselves (or deem it restoration to anyone who will listen).

But as Brad posted, at the end of the day, it all goes back to Far Hills. To think that almost 75 years ago, Riviera was a course so hard that it made Bobby Jones ponder, "where do the members play?" And this week you have players thinking they can beat the course record of 61, well, I think that says a lot. Some of the change in mentality is a result of the excellent conditioning, but most of it is the change in the equipment and how hazards at Riviera are maintained. And so like many other classic courses, no matter how good Thomas's design is, it must be changed so the USGA can save face. They should be ashamed of putting themselves ahead of the game for so many years, and now, more than ever they are sacrificing the good of the game to save themselves. What happened to the good old days when the Executive Committee wouldn't put up with this kind of nonsense? Where are the CB Macdonalds of the world?!
Geoff
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: The latest outrage from Riviera
« Reply #48 on: February 14, 2002, 08:37:56 AM »
Geoff:

Wow, look at that, even your Dad said your article on Riviera may have been made to seem like only you up against a big, combined, slick PR machine!

Do you feel like a little fish swimming against an enormous storm tide?

Well, don't worry about it Pal, hope is eternal and most all of us here are with you! But don't we all feel like the little rag-tag band of American Colonialists facing the glittering, sophisticated and enormous numbers of the British armies??

But afterall, how did that all pan out?

Hang in there!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The latest outrage from Riviera
« Reply #49 on: February 14, 2002, 09:14:26 AM »
TEPaul,

We let you win....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf