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Joe Bausch

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Rees redo for Tilly's Tulsa track
« on: November 08, 2010, 11:59:28 AM »
That's the title of this article here:

http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/Rees-redo-for-Tillys-Tulsa-track/1974/Default.aspx

Phil, were you consulted in this restoration?  If yes, what sort of information did you provide Rees?

Here is the beginning of the article above:

US architect Rees Jones is working on a renovation of the AW Tillinghast-design Tulsa Country Club in Oklahoma.

The club, which dates to 1908, moved to its present site on the outskirts of the city in 1916, when Tillinghast was employed to redesign an existing course.

Jones says much of the character of the original Tillinghast design had faded over the years, and, that with limited historical documentation available, the challenge was imagining what Tillinghast had intended for the site.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2010, 04:25:21 PM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Phil_the_Author

Re: Rees redo for Tilly's Tulsa track
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2010, 12:08:29 PM »
Joe,

No I wasn't.

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees redo for Tilly's Tulsa track
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2010, 12:35:13 PM »
The course had some remodel work done in the 80's by Jay Morrish I believe as well.  I wonder how much of the Tilly work is left.

I really liked Rees work at MPCC Dunes, from what Bob says the members are very happy and its a better course now than it was.

It was a very nice golf course, hopefully they don't mess it up in search of a few hundred yards of length. 


« Last Edit: November 08, 2010, 12:40:28 PM by Craig Edgmand »

Sam Morrow

Re: Rees redo for Tilly's Tulsa track
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2010, 12:39:59 PM »
Tulsa Country Club is a good course but it's my understanding little Tilly was left, it was also explained to me by a member that the hole sequence had been redone several times.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Rees redo for Tilly's Tulsa track
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2010, 03:34:15 PM »
I'm actually hoping to get out there next summer to take a tour of Tilly's Oklahoma and Kansas courses...

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees redo for Tilly's Tulsa track
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2010, 03:59:23 PM »
If one was to select a course to use for getting a feel for a Tillinghast design would Baltusrol be at the top of the list with Ridgewood, WFW, etc. in the neighborhood? 

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Rees redo for Tilly's Tulsa track
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2010, 04:07:51 PM »
How screwed up is golf when 5 million is a limited budget for a renovation. Gee, I wonder why there is so little work going on.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Rees redo for Tilly's Tulsa track
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2010, 08:30:32 PM »
If one was to select a course to use for getting a feel for a Tillinghast design would Baltusrol be at the top of the list with Ridgewood, WFW, etc. in the neighborhood? 

Jerry,

Both courses at Baltusrol have been redone by the Joneses, so, that would be a poor choice.

Winged Foot and Ridgewood, yes.  San Francisco Golf Club if you want something that looks a bit different; we have done a lot of work there but there is nothing "Tom Doak" apart from a handful of back tees.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Rees redo for Tilly's Tulsa track
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2010, 08:58:36 PM »
Jerry,

Unlike many architects, Tilly's style was dependent upon the terrain he was working with. As a result, there is no prototypical Tillinghast design.

There are features that can be found on many of his courses which are typical of his design philosophies. For example, he felt that the entrance to the green was the most important aspect of course design and so his courses that have the green as an extentsion of the fairway leading into it are examples of this and should be studied for that principle. A great example is the San Francisco Golf Club. What Tom didn't say is that he was first brought in to replace the putting surfaces which were severely infested with nematodes. Most architects would have lasered the greens before ripping them apart, just as Tom & Jim did, and then tried to make something similar appear using new soil into the 2 foot deep holes they would have dug, with the ending excuse that they did the best they could following the schematics the laser produced.

Tom & Jim didn't. They didn't rip them apart, rather they scalped them as close as they dared. They sent the soil out to be sterilized and kill the nematodes off and then put it back. This enabled them to recreate the putting surfaces so closely to what was there before that long-time members, players who have putted the greens 30, 40 and even 50 years and more can't tell the difference to what had been there before. As a result, the entrances were also saved and are clearly as Tillinghast intended. Tom can feel very free to tell you how much I praised this work when I saw it.

The point is that you need to understand his design principles before you can approach a "Tillinghast" course to learn what and how he did it. A while back I had a discussion with a well-known architect who stated that Tilly always designed "grass-faced" bunkers and used the example of the front left bunker of the 18th green on Winged Foot West. While we were talking I emailed him two photos. The first was the front left bunker on 18 WFW showing the grass-face that stopped about a foot above the bunker floor. The second was of the back left bunker on the same hole. This bunker has sand flashed up the sides to the top of every face. Obviously he had misunderstood what Tilly did and why.

There are great examples of Tilly's design philosophy put into practice across the entire country, not just the northeast. If you define the aspect of what you want to see and study then it becomesd easier to recommend where best to go and look.

Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees redo for Tilly's Tulsa track
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2010, 09:05:34 PM »
bummer, it sounds like it closed.  i was going to try see it when i am in town in a few weeks.  is it for sure closed?

Phil_the_Author

Re: Rees redo for Tilly's Tulsa track
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2010, 09:15:14 PM »
Don,

I think you read it a bit incorrectly. It was 4.7 million of which a third went to a new irrigation system and pumphouse. That left about 3.2 million with which they built 18 USGA greens and surrounds, relocated tees, new fairway bunkering, regraded faiorways for better drainage and "other infrastructure works."

It actually sounds to me like they definitely got the most work they could for the bucks spent. It'll be interesting to see how it looks next year...

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Rees redo for Tilly's Tulsa track
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2010, 09:35:41 PM »
No, Phil, I read it right.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees redo for Tilly's Tulsa track
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2010, 09:44:27 PM »
Phil,
The 3.2 will build a new course with irrigation....
Figures like this do so much damage to our older courses when they are made public and memberships see them....they think they have to spend such and if they are told it can be less then it must not be as good....and the signatures use it to their advantage....and more of our older courses disappear from such....the problem I am seeing first hand is that most memberships don't know what they have demolished.  And it will not come back....
« Last Edit: November 08, 2010, 09:46:42 PM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Rees redo for Tilly's Tulsa track
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2010, 09:49:26 PM »
Phil,

$4.7 million is a lot of money.  It could be reasonable if it includes EVERYTHING ... architect's fees, lost revenue due to closing and other accounting charges.  But If that's the construction bid number alone, sand must be awfully expensive in Tulsa!

Phil_the_Author

Re: Rees redo for Tilly's Tulsa track
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2010, 11:56:16 PM »
Tom,

The article infers nothing about architects fees being separate. As for accounting tools invovling revenues lost, etc... nothing is mentioned nor is it also stated that it isn't included. The article is vague in the details other than the irrigation and pumphouse costing 1/3 of 4.7 million with the rest rebuilding basically the entire golf course.

What is an average price for a new USGA green?

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees redo for Tilly's Tulsa track
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2010, 06:39:13 AM »
"Jones says much of the character of the original Tillinghast design had faded over the years, and, that with limited historical documentation available, the challenge was imagining what Tillinghast had intended for the site."

It sounds a little like what Rees did at Bethpage when he redesigned the bunkering around the greens in the style of Winged Foot. It will be interesting to see which Tilly style he employees at Tulsa (if any) because Tilly's style evolved over time.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees redo for Tilly's Tulsa track
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2010, 06:58:28 AM »
Phil Young,

What are your thoughts regarding the statement on the availability of historical information?
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Rick Wolffe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees redo for Tilly's Tulsa track
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2010, 08:50:11 AM »
I just wanted to update Tom Doak's post on Baltusrol Lower and Upper.  I am pleased to report that both courses are near complete in master planning process which eliminated dozen's of Robert Trent Jones features on the Lower, and restored around one hundred Tillinghast features on both Lower and Upper courses.  The Tillinghast Association provided Rees Jones and his associate Steve Weisser aerial photos of the both courses that dated to the completion of the Upper and Lower in 1927, prior to final installation of the fairway irrigation system.  Dozens of ground level photos were also provided.  The design features restored included fairway and greenside bunkers including donut bunkers, green expansions including skyline greens, approach restoration on dozens of holes, etc. etc.  The Tillinghast routing from tee to green on this 36-hole "Dual courses" is 100% intact and we believe that Baltusrol is the first 36-hole design project in America.  There is no doubt that Baltusrol launched Tillinghast to the top of his profession and put him at or near the top of his contemporaries.   Today, Baltusrol is an excellent representation of his design principals.  With its 36 hole design, there are few if any Tillinghast courses which can provide more examples of Tillinghast's design principals and specific design features than Baltusrol Lower and Upper.

 
« Last Edit: November 09, 2010, 09:08:31 AM by Rick Wolffe »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Rees redo for Tilly's Tulsa track
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2010, 09:10:05 AM »
Rick,

I am having a hard time with your statement above.  Maybe lots has changed since I was last at Baltusrol, but the last I saw it, 3/4 of the tees and 3/4 of the fairway bunkers looked like a new Rees Jones course, and many of those fairway bunkers had been moved from where Tillinghast put them.  Is that wrong?  Did they move a lot of bunkers back to their original locations?

Rick Wolffe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees redo for Tilly's Tulsa track
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2010, 09:15:59 AM »
Getting back to main question on this Thread, I just want to add that around the time the work started at Tulsa, Rees Jones's office did ask the Tillinghast Association for all information and photographs on Tulsa CC in the Association's archive to assist in their work.   Unfortunately we had very little if anything, and no photographs of Tillinghast's Tulsa CC.

Rick Wolffe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees redo for Tilly's Tulsa track
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2010, 09:22:43 AM »
Hi Tom

I am off to a conference in NYC and would love to go over every hole with you...making broad generalizations on 3/4ths of this and that is a very inaccurate representation, and I beg to differ on your view.  I would be very pleased to give you a tour both courses with me at your earliest convenience and a more informed estimate of this and that can be rendered.

Best

- Rick

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees redo for Tilly's Tulsa track
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2010, 09:49:25 AM »
TCC's web page does have a few decent old photos:

https://www.memberstatements.com/tour/tours.cfm?tourid=42423
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Phil_the_Author

Re: Rees redo for Tilly's Tulsa track
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2010, 09:58:24 AM »
Tom,

In response to your comment to Rick, "I am having a hard time with your statement above.  Maybe lots has changed since I was last at Baltusrol, but the last I saw it, 3/4 of the tees and 3/4 of the fairway bunkers looked like a new Rees Jones course, and many of those fairway bunkers had been moved from where Tillinghast put them.  Is that wrong?  Did they move a lot of bunkers back to their original locations?"

I was wondering when was the last time you were at Baltusrol? I was there just a couple of weeks ago on two occasions, one spent driving around with Rick & Bob Trebus going over the work being done and the other one the challenge match between Rick & Mucci.

Baltusrol has made a commitment to recover Tilly. What Rick stated about the information given to Rees and Steve Weisser is true; they fuirnished them with an incredible amount of workable historic photographs and information to enable them to do the work. There are a number of people on this site that see Rees' name and immediately are critical; to me that is just as wrong as those on here who every time they see your name picture waters immediately place the new course in the top three of the world. In both cases balance is missed and the individual project is not judged on its own merits. That is something that I take a great deal of time in coming to and I will say this about the work at baltusrol... it is very, very good!

You mention tees. Yes, the new tees are still there, and yet, so are the Tillinghast tees! There are even some that are now there because they have been restored.

The bunkers are being restored to both shape and position. Yes, Tom, many are and have been either moved back to where Tilly originally placed them and/or reshaped to the original design. Others that are later installs are beiong left in place. Rick mentions the "donut" bunker. That is an example of an original  feature that was restored.

One of the areas that concerned me in years past was the green entrances as in a number of cases they had rough grown in front of them, thus taking away any semblance of the originally-designed ground game. These are now being restored as well, and in fact, it was this very point that generated the "Wolffe-Mucci challenge match" on a particular hole.

I think you should take Rick up on his invitation and stop in. I believe you'll be more than pleasantly surprised.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Rees redo for Tilly's Tulsa track
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2010, 10:36:54 AM »
JC,

You asked, "Phil Young, What are your thoughts regarding the statement on the availability of historical information?"

I guess you are referring to the article where it states, "Jones says much of the character of the original Tillinghast design had faded over the years, and, that with limited historical documentation available, the challenge was imagining what Tillinghast had intended for the site."

I am wondering in what sense the question is being asked? Is it a simple one of "Is there very little information available" or one of "How much research did Rees and his people do?"

First of all, as noted above by Rick, the Tillinghast Association was contacted to see what information we have about Tulsa in our archives. There is very little and what is there was definitely passed along. The real questions that should be asked are "How much archival information does the club have," "How extensive a search did the architect and the CLUB perform" and "Was it used?"

First of all, knowing Rees and his people, I can't imagine them NOT doing a thorough search with the club for photos, drawings and written documentation of all types. In situations like these the research can be long, tedious and expensive and just as clubs want budgets and costs held to certain amounts in the construction work so, too, with research. Even where a great deal of time, money and effort is put into researching a aproject, sometimes the information isn't located because its simply in a place where no one thought to look. Let me give you an example that Tom will especially appreciate.

When they were restoring 13-15 at the SFGC, they had photos and drawings of everything EXCEPT the 14th green. They looked everywhere, and one only has to walk through the men's grill to appreciate the variety of old photographs the club has of the course, but were unable to find any. They even contacted some not assocated with the club to see what they could find and no one was able to find any. They were nearly finished with the project when I received an email from the Green Committee Chairman which started off by saying "You are our last hope..." and asked if I might possibly know of any photographs of the original 14th green. Literally within 5 minutes of getting that email I sent him 5 different views of the hole taken by Tilly and published back then. He was stunned as no one else knew of them nor had even thought of where to look for them.

Now, as much as I sometimes like to think of myself as a genius, the reason I knew of these photographs was quite simple... I used one of them as part of the end sheets in my Tilly biography! You see the end sheets are made up of Tillinghast ADVERTISEMENTS that featured different golf hole photographs of his, the 14th green of SFGC being one of them. It was nothing more than dumb luck that I was asked and was aware of them from having used it that way. Unless one regularly does detailed research of this kind they simply would never think of looking at old advertisements for specific golf course photographs.

Fortunately, the work Tom and his pople did was superb! They were able to get the green, its entrance and the bunkering right without them.

So JC, the real answer to your question is that I wasn't involved and so can't speak to the extent of the research done by either Rees' people or the Club itself. Is there more original information out there? Most defintiely! I've personally seen that to be the case far too often. Unfortunately, it is the rare club that will spend the monies to reclaim their history through a thorough research. That is unfortunate because I believe there is very little greater that a club can do than invest in a comprehensive "Course Evolution History" as it will show them what was original, the changes made, most importantly WHY they were made and uncover a great deal of lost agronomic information that will help in the future care for the course.

The bottom line is simply the answer to this question... "Is the Club satisfied and happy with the work that was done?"

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees redo for Tilly's Tulsa track
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2010, 11:01:12 AM »
I can't imagine why anyone would hire Rees Jones to restore anything, he has long track record of leaving his distinctive mark on every course he 'restores.'

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