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Mike Clayton

Re: Leading Contenders for Best New in 2002
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2001, 04:13:30 AM »
Chris

NO

You are a member at Commonwealth so you ought to know the differance between holes that look good and holes that are good.They keep telling me the new 1st looks good but the hole they wrecked to build it was awesome

After 18 at ML go to RM or KH for deprograming.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Leading Contenders for Best New in 2002
« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2001, 05:51:12 AM »
Daryl,
     I meant Wolf Creek (at Paradise Canyon) in Mesquite, NV, #3 on the Best New Upscale list for this year.

     Strantz' web site (not quite updated) has Bull's Bay as opening in Nov. 2001.  I don't know if it has opened, but the web site has two pics of Bull's Bay, one during construction and one finished.  

http://www.mikestrantzdesign.com/bullsbay.html

http://www.mikestrantzdesign.com/onlocation.html

The web site for Bull's Bay has nothing on it.  Call the phone # on there to see if they've opened.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff Sernick

Re: Leading Contenders for Best New in 2002
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2001, 09:18:33 AM »
I played Whisper Rock last month and it is very good.  It was laid out on the desert floor and in contrast to a lot of the area courses with the elevated tee's and views looking down to the fairway.


Quote
In Scottsdale, Whisper Rock may get some consideration in the private category. The Scott Miller design at Fort McDowell Indian Reservation looks like it may be a good one (not limited by turf or water restrictions), I believe it is opening this month. In So. California, Rustic Canyon is sure to get a lot of press, it will be intersting to see if the raters back up the hype, I think they probably will. In the Coachella Valley, the Country Club of the Desert will have the Clive course and the Dye course in the private category. The Clive is very visual with lots of eye candy, sort of Disneyland meets golf in Palm Springs. If you like waterfalls you'll love it. The Dye course is very interesting and I believe it will be highly rated. Pete built some interesting fairways with regards to humps, bumps and mogals and the greens look very interesting. They are on the small side with quite a bit of  movement and lots of tiny, and I mean tiny, pot bunkers scattered around. From what I've seen and heard, those are some that may get some notice in my part of the world.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Leading Contenders for Best New in 2002
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2001, 03:00:23 PM »
What a shame that a course built to so much hype and anticipation ends up being a disappointment.  I guess thats a risk the AGU took by announcing an Open would be played on a course yet to be designed and built.

The impression I got from looking down from the hill what that alot of things were overdone - there had been a concerted effort to make this a 'big' course in every way.  Does it depart from the minimalist principles that TWP seem to talk about at every opportunity?

What I still don't understand is why the course has to be so long from the Open tees.  6700m (7400yards) is very very long, and if the course has to be that long to defend itself against par, then there must be something very wrong with the design.  Its going to end up being a long driving contest and nothing else.  A course where every par 4 is near over mover 400m doesn't examine every part of the game.

I only started playing five yrs ago, only been a member fro 12 months, so unfortunately I never saw the course in a previous state.  Having spoken to members, there is mixed feeling.  The old hole was apparantly more fun to play, whereas the new one is harder.  But just becuase its more difficult doesn't necessarily make it better.

Mike:  What do you think TWP did wrong at ML, and is this another chapter in the death of the Australian Open?
(The Grand 2001, Moonah 2003, what next?)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Michael Stefanik

Re: Leading Contenders for Best New in 2002
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2001, 05:48:50 PM »
There is a new public course North Hampton in Jacksonville FL that is an Arnold Palmer Signature Design that is just pure golf.. The golf course is 7171 from the tips and plays much longer.. The golf course isn't typical Palmer. The website is www.hamptongolfinc.com If you get a chance to play in Jacksonville I would strongly recomend that you play this one because every hole is good.. The only downfall for the golf course is that it plays the sand dunes that frame the holes as ob which by my standards is still playable because it is on the property of the golf course.. I membership is affordable and the golf course is the best course that I have played in Flordia maybe because it reminds me of northern golf with a lot of water..
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Clayton

Re: Leading Contenders for Best New in 2002
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2001, 12:34:52 PM »
Chris

At the old 1st at Commonwealth you had to hit a shot -either a high fade if you wanted to fly it on or a low bouncing one if you had to run it on. If you missed it in the wrong place you were left with a really tough chip although the greens were always too soft to really extract a punishment - an example of poor maintainance affecting the design.
At the new hole there is no shot to hit or no decision to make - simply its a 2 iron and a sand wedge to a big green.Its really just a way to get to the 2nd tee.

I'm not going near your ML question but I'II take you to Ranfurlie and you can see for yourself the difference in our philosophy.

email me   theclayts@bigpond.com.au.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Leading Contenders for Best New in 2002
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2001, 05:39:02 PM »
Matt Ward-

Brad Klein mentioned a course that is, I believe, being built in Jersey. I want to say that it's near the Delaware River, but I'm not sure. Any idea what course it would be? He was extremely enthusiastic.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Cirba

Re: Leading Contenders for Best New in 2002
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2001, 07:44:25 PM »
Craig,

The course in question is called RiverWinds, designed by local environmental architect Ed Shearon, somewhere in Burlington county I believe.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Leading Contenders for Best New in 2002
« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2001, 09:22:51 PM »
I have heard of a sleeper near Cary, IL. Called Foxford. Tim Nugent designed (thingy's son)  :-*   Maybe even better than the Glen Club. :o
 I do find this pre-hype hype very interesting.
And is it me or is there alot of diversity out there. As Mike Cirba said 19 publics in a short radius. If this isn't an example of market saturation which signals a top, I don't know what would. Of course I can thank Dan King for posting that Andy Warhol quote which would mean it's not and we have miles to go before we sleep. 8)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

sndhlz

Re: Leading Contenders for Best New in 2002
« Reply #34 on: December 10, 2001, 02:34:17 PM »
hamilton farm gc in peapack/gladstone, nj. an upscale private originally owned by lucent but recently sold for $50+ million. a rather difficult site with lots of elevation change and wooded. superbly conditioned ( of course) , the only glaring criticism being extra wide fairways.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JBergan

Re: Leading Contenders for Best New in 2002
« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2001, 02:53:57 PM »
I did a Google search on RiverWinds.  Its' being built in West Deptford, NJ.  I had not even heard of the course until it was mentioned here.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Leading Contenders for Best New in 2002
« Reply #36 on: December 10, 2001, 03:07:51 PM »
sndhlz -

I think Hamilton Farm was on the ballot for this year. Moreover, i don't see any drawback to wide fairways. In fact, the winner of the Best New Private - Kinloch - won primarily on the strength of its wide fairways, which created multiple avenues of play on each hole. My sense is that Hurdzan/Fry were going for a similar strategy at Ham. Farm.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Stettner

Re: Leading Contenders for Best New in 2002
« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2001, 04:31:02 PM »
Mayacama, the best Nicklaus course I've ever seen, should garner heaps of praise. The setting alone will ensure consideration, and the golf course itself really works.
The Dragon at Gold Mountain, 40 miles from Lake Tahoe, is just the kind of course Golf Digest likes. Big, brawny layout that has a Frank Loyd Wright designed clubhouse that had never been built.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Leading Contenders for Best New in 2002
« Reply #38 on: December 10, 2001, 05:27:08 PM »
Jeff:

The Dragon at Gold Mountain was on the GD ballot this year. I played the course and found it be somewhat strange in the way a few of the holes were presented.

Yes, you're right -- the clubhouse is clearly spectacular with its Frank Lloyd Wright design.

I really liked the holes several of the holes, but a few were severe dog-legs (I believe it was the 5th (?) and the par-5 11th) that were truly abrupt. Also, the uphill 12th hole may be nearly unputtable.

High marks to the scenery and the location -- too bad the practice area could not be bigger (fortunately they have one -- nearby Coyote Moon doesn't). :)

FYI --

Hamilton Farm was on the GD ballot this year and I thought it was really undervalued by my fellow panelists.

Does anyone have course info on RiverWinds -- total yardage / par / ??? Is it near Laurel Creek???
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

cardyin

Re: Leading Contenders for Best New in 2002
« Reply #39 on: December 10, 2001, 05:42:35 PM »
I played the Wolf at Paiute Indiana reservation north of Las Vegas a few weeks ago.  It is, in my opinion, one of Pete Dye's best courses recently.  Although condition of the course is not counted with Best New nominees, it seems many of the new courses are immaculate from the outset, and the Wolf fits into that pattern.  Don't let Webb/
Soremstam 64-65 (on Shell's Wonderful World of Golf) mislead you.  The Wolf is a strong test, about 7,600 from the tips.  The holes run every which way, and are of varied lengths.  The biggest drawback is the 15th, a copycat island hole like the 17th at Sawgrass or the 17th at PGA Stadium West.  It is out of character with the rest of the course. The holes are fringed with wild flowers, and it is quite pretty and will improve as it matures.  
I also played Bear's Best in Las Vegas, a collection of some of Nicklaus' western holes.  The 10th, a replica of a PGA West Resort hole, is very much more severely contoured than the other holes. It also features two holes--a par 3 and a very short par 4--from the Old Works course in Montana, replete with black slag bunkers. A supposed replica of the 14th hole at Castle Pines didn't come off too well. The pines are scraggly and I don't recall the hole looking the way it is replicated.  Other than that, it fits together well.  It all depends on how one views replica courses.  One nice thing about it from the Nicklaus company standpoint is it doesn't have to worry about tradename or trademark infringement or other similar problems since it already owns them, and it already has the plans.
A week before I was on the site of Bull's Bay just north of Charleston, S.C..  Mike Strantz has quietly constructed a mountain on the property.  Fishermen use it as a landmark.  While I was there, some workmen were at its summit, and they looked like ants.  Locals tell me it spreads out quite nicely from there and will be very well received.  Unless you know the exact way, you can't find it.  Go 2 1/2 miles north of the main entrance to Charleston National on highway 17.  There is a black mail box on the right hand side, and, across the median, a fire station.  You turn right at the mail box and wind back about a quarter of a mile on a dirt road to the staging area.  Also, while in Charleston, I drove around Rivertown, a new Palme/Seay design across the street from Dunes West just north of Mt. Pleasant.  It is all ready to go, and it looks terrific.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Leading Contenders for Best New in 2002
« Reply #40 on: December 10, 2001, 06:54:06 PM »
Cardyin,

What do you know about Rivertown.  it it open?  Or when?

You wouldnt happen to know any phone number for it or anything?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Instagram: @thequestfor3000

"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

JBergan

Re: Leading Contenders for Best New in 2002
« Reply #41 on: December 11, 2001, 06:43:54 PM »
Matt Ward:

Laurel Creek is about a half hour north of RiverWinds.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Leading Contenders for Best New in 2002
« Reply #42 on: December 12, 2001, 07:50:10 PM »

Also forgot about the two new courses at Berkley Hall near Hilton Head.  I have heard good things about the first one, I think the second one just opened not too long ago.

ALso Greg Norman's new Oldfield just a few miles away from Berkley Hall will be on the lists for this year.

So once again the Hilton Head Island area continues to churn out upscale developments.  Seemingly no end to them.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Instagram: @thequestfor3000

"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Leading Contenders for Best New in 2002
« Reply #43 on: December 12, 2001, 08:50:37 PM »
GOLDEN OCALA.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ian andre

Re: Leading Contenders for Best New in 2002
« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2001, 07:58:28 PM »
Canadian: Bigwin Island (the boat trip is half the fun)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

john_f (Guest)

Re: Leading Contenders for Best New in 2002
« Reply #45 on: December 14, 2001, 10:17:49 AM »
I hope the GD raters and everyone will get a chance to see Robin Nelson's work at Ravewood in Victor, NY south of Rochester. They had 9 holes open late fall which played great. The rest of the course will open in spring. From what I've seen the place will be fantastic. Some great strategic holes and a fantastic routing.

Some pictures are available at:

 http://www.ravenwoodgolf.com/


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Leading Contenders for Best New in 2002
« Reply #46 on: December 16, 2001, 06:44:28 PM »
Oh yeah I forgot to mention Sage Valley.  Tom Fazios' new enclave down near Augusta it is now open.  I think it is in Graniteville, SC.

I had forgotten about it until one of my friends mentioned this weekend that his boss played there this week.  I have not heard anything about it.  Has anyone else??
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Instagram: @thequestfor3000

"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Leading Contenders for Best New in 2002
« Reply #47 on: December 17, 2001, 08:30:06 AM »
John -
Hasn't Golden Ocala been opened for quite some time? I understand that it has undergone some work, but that certainly wouldn't qualify it anymore than, say, Merion.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GolfingAT6

Re: Leading Contenders for Best New in 2002
« Reply #48 on: December 17, 2001, 01:41:43 PM »
I live in the Pinehurst area of North Carolina and work at the resort on course 6.  Around here Forrest Creek is opening a new course by Fazio.  Pinehurst 9 and 10 are on hold right now having some money issues. Also Pinehurst number 7 is gonna close down in june next year not real sure if it is gonna be a complete redesign or just redoing the greens and moving some dirt.  Take a look at Forrest Creek under courses on this site. I have heard that the second course is going to be off the meter.  Also they just closed the Cardinal Course at the Country Club of North Carolina not sure when it will be open. I would encourage anyone to come down to the sandhills area and play rates are a little down right now and soon enough 7 9 and 10 will be finished.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Leading Contenders for Best New in 2002
« Reply #49 on: December 17, 2001, 04:35:27 PM »
How does the process work? Are all the GD panelists involved in the Best New voting or is there a seperate panel? Does the magazine indentify/specify which courses are eligible, which need to be evaluated? How is the criteria different from the 100 greatest voting? How many 'new' courses does a typical panelist see? Because of GD's annual tradition of identifying the best new courses does a GD panelist play a higher percentage of modern courses than the typical Golf or Golfweek panelist?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »