Royal St Georges + blind shots

[Philip Gawith]

 I played at RSG on Saturday and was reminded just how much of the golf is blind. We know, of course, that there used to be more, especially the Maiden hole. And we know this is why the pro's don't like the place - bless them.

Still, if you go through the holes....

1 - the dirve is semi-blind (you don't generally see the ball finish) and the same goes for the approach.
2 - depends on the tees you are playing, but you generally do not see the drive finish.
3 - short hole
4 - blind drive and you generally dont' see the second finish
5 - blind approach
6 - short
7 - blind drive
8 - semi-blind drive ( you don't see the finish)
9 - sem-blind drive
10 - semi-blind second to skyline green
11 - short
12 - semi-blind drive
13 - blind drive
14 - not blind
15 - not blind
16 - short
17 - semi-blind drive
18 - not blind

is there any other championship/leading course which has so many blind shots? Maybe NGLA?

I suspect for members the blindness matters increasingly less, but for visitors it can be quite daunting (something exacerbated at RSG by quite significant variety in tees which means you are often playing very different angles on your tee shots from one round to another and that can take some getting used to).

[Simon Holt]

Lots of the links courses do.  RCD and TOC for sure but I havent counted how many.

[JNC Lyon]

Philip,

Sandwich definitely has a lot of blind shots, which is probably one reason why some great players do not love the course.  Compared with other Rota courses, I am guessing it has more than its share of blindness.  However, like Simon said, I did not think its blindness was unique compared with many great links courses.  Any time a links has the dynamic land that Sandwich has, it should have that many blind shots.

Compare it with Deal, which has blind completely blind shots on 3, 5, 6, 13, 15, and 17, and obscured shots at 2 and 16.  That is 8 holes to Sandwich's ten, and Sandwich has much more tumultuous terrain than Deal.  Simon, if you want to talk links courses with blind or semi-blind shots, how about North Berwick! 1, 3, 5, 13, 14, 17 for starters.  Prestwick has at least 9 holes with blindness.  Yes, Sandwich has a lot, but not that much when compared with other fine links.

[Brent Hutto]

It was a huge issue during the 2006 Amateur there. Each of the first two (medal) days had pretty serious winds and there was a severe shortage of volunteers spotting balls in the rough on all those blind Par 4's. So you had most players hitting provisional balls 3, 4, 5 or more times per round and from time to time the provisional shot would sail well into the tall rough as well. Quite a mess. It required IMHO at minimum one marshall/spotter on each side of the fairway on the hole you mentioned but there were more like 12-15 of them on the entire course.

The day I played there this summer the rough was cut back somewhat and most errant balls were findable. So what remained was the not so much concern about hitting a ball blind and not finding it but rather the fact that so many of "Position A" on that course is a very speciific area. I'm terrible with hole numbers but there's the fifth or sixth with basically a tabletop to hit if you want a view of the green through the gap in the dunes and then on the hole before that (fourth?) there is a rather narrow pie slice of fairway that provides a far more advantageous approach, especially with any wind about.

Isn't 12 the shortish hole where you can lay back before the falloff the green? I'd think a less-than-driver layup there is not blind if that's the correct hole number. The tenth hole doesn't feel blind on the approach if you've seen the green before but on first time round the course I suppose it might. Cool hole, though. I did not recall the blindness on thirteen but maybe that's because we were playing the visitor's tees.

[Jamie Barber]

I guess with any course with lots of blind shots, if you can play there regularly it's no big deal once you learn the course. Not so much fun for visitors at £100+ a pop if you end up losing balls or spend a lot of time looking for lost balls.

Wasn't it Tommy Armour who said something like "to anyone with a memory, a blind hole is blind only once" (or similar).

[Tony_Muldoon]

Buyer’s remorse Phillip?

A non scientific run through of my favourite courses indicates to that to a greater or larger amount blindness on a course is important to me.

Lahinch
Portrush
RCD
Prestwick
Cruden Bay
TOC
North Berwick
RSG
B&B
Pennard
Epping GC

Have only played RCD once (with a GCA Caddy!), but it strikes me as the one course where blindness is as an important feature as it is at RSG.

Sad to think that modern Architects won’t go there

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I'm sure we'd all agree that there are different degrees of blindness, but it occurs to me that there are also many different types of blindness. At Royal County Down there are lots of blind shots to be played but you can usually work out where to hit your ball because of the surrounding dunes and where the dunes aren't is probably where the fairway or green is. You are often playing in some kind of valley and the layout has you playing generally in two sets of parallel holes following the parallel dunes. (The second shot on the 13th, however, is pure guesswork if your drive has not finished long and left.) But at Royal St George's the layout keeps changing direction and angle. The dunes and valleys are much more random and disordered than RCD, so you are left feeling bewildered or disorientated. It's hard to deduce where you should be aiming because of the type of blindness, not its degree. It shouldn't, however, be a problem for Open Championship contenders - they have practice rounds and caddies, there are spectator stands and television towers, ball spotters and marshals. 

[John Mayhugh]

Philip,
I really enjoyed my day at Sandwich last year. Until reading your post, I hadn't thought about how much blindness there can be.  It didn't affect my impression of the course at all, but that's largely because we did not have the deep rough that Brent saw in 2006.

[Brent Hutto]

The thing that Mark is talking about is part of the charm of Royal St. Georges to me. It's a huge piece of property and the constant tacking back and forth between, over and around the dunes is a joyful experience as long as you know what direction to hit your ball. And you never go more than hundred yards or so (it seems) without being able to catch a glimpse of the St. George Cross flying in front of the clubhouse. That plus the constant awareness of the water nearby means you don't feel lost, just wandering.

What a great place. But knowing what you're doing is certainly a prerequisite for an enjoyable round of golf.

[Philip Gawith]

Sorry to be slow in returning to my own thread! A non-golfing weekend in Vienna which offers different sorts of stimulation!

Maybe RSG is not so stand-out as I thought, though I rather suspect John is right that it has much more undulating terrain than most leading links, so you would, up to a point expect it. And I also agree with Mark's point that it may be harder to get a handle on some of the blindness owing the routing changes (and the considerably variety in tee angles eg on 4th you can be driving from tees that are 50 yards apart).

Brent - they have markers in some of the club medal events on the main blind drive holes such as 4 and 7 which tells you something. I have not seen this before at any other club. The 12th you drive over a diagonal ridge with the green to the right. You can't see the ball land. If you are playing medal markers on 13 you can't see the ball land on the drive - it is quite similar to the 7th (though you will see next year that the pro's have a new and different tee which totally changes the hole - makes it straight - and therefore removes the blindness). As for the 10th - everytime you hit your second shot to that hole you will be wondering about the depth of the flag and be left feeling very uncertain about how hard to hit it, given that neither short nor long is a good outcome, or left or right for that matter.

No remorse Tony!

[Scott Warren]

Philip,

That's remarkable about the spotters in club medals.

I maybe have a different personal definition of "blind" to some, for example I wouldn't think of the drives at 1, 8, 9 and 17 as blind, even though I might not see my drive finish I can see a heap of fairway and I know exactly where to hit it.

I think when people complain of the blindness at RSG (I think they're crazy) the shots, if you polled them, that really annoy are the drives at 4, 7, 13 and perhaps also 2 from the back tees.

Likewise I love your description of the uncertainty of approaching #10, but I think of that as a result of it being the finest skyline green I have ever seen rather than any blindness.

[Sean_A]

Yes, I too think blindness is made too much a meal of at Sandwich.  There aren't that many truly "I don't have a clue" blind shots on the course.  Additionally, some are self made and some can be avoided by laying up.  Same is true of Pennard, but it shows me that many folks really aren't comfortable with not seeing everything out there.  Of course, this is the exact reason archies should include blindness, but of course many hise behind the skirts of dangerous play - figures in this day of watering all things down. 

Ciao

[john_stiles]

Agree with Sean about RSG.    Blindness issues surely go away with a second play.  And for something like the Open, after several rounds, with marshalls and spectators all around,  complaining about blindness will not likely be heard from the leaders.

And #10 is a grand skyline.  Uncertainity in judging your second to #10 is a problem,  one I hope to enjoy again.

And really, with the rolling terrain at many of the famous links, any shot into high grasses are hard to find.

For me, the main issue is depth perception, and which little roll was the ball near.  Generally there are not any distant features to mark your line.

Philip,

If markers are used for medals,  what is the objection to markers, on just the few holes you mentioned,  for everyday play ?

[Mark Chaplin]

At RStG I dislike the drive at 7th similar to 6th at Rye and the 13th plus the approach to the 8th, these you have abosolutely no idea where you are going. All the other blind shots are links golf.

At Deal the degree of blindness is often linked to the positioning of the ball especially on the older holes 1-6 & 15-18.

The second isn't blind if you hit onto the narrow shelf and risk the bunker on the right. The lovely flat area left on the fairway leaves a semi blind approach.

Medium length and straight on the third leaves a semi blind shot (you can see the top third of the pin) long and straight (or wayward) is totally blind.

The seventeenth has three defined options from the tee. The plateau is tricky to hit but leaves a longer clear view of the green and pin. Vardon's Parlour is flat and results in a medium length semi blind shot. Anything hit to leave a wedge type approach is totally blind.

Luck or good design?

[Sean_A]

Chappers

Sandwich's 7th has the low notch which signals the line.  It is however a slighty easier driving version of Rye's 6th.  The funny thing is, and this is partly why I consider Rye one of my favourites, Rye's 6th (par 4) is tougher than Sandwich's 7th (par 5).  That is Rye all over, much, much tougher than the card suggests.

Ciao   

[Ally Mcintosh]

On any course, give me no fully blind approaches, give me one bombs away fully blind drive, give me two blind landing areas, give me three blind approaches from the wrong side of the fairway only and give me four approaches where I can see the flagstick but little of the green…

That course would probably offer me the variety I was looking for…

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