[V. Kmetz]

Jud,

Perhaps the manner in which I put this forward inside the context of this thread is a little nebulous.

I guess my main point that I think - just on the economic front - is better stated:

NO COURSE is worth more than about $300 bucks per round to me...

I realize that this wasn't the point of this thread and merely a tangent to the "architecturally overrated in one's experience" but being I'll never play 90% of the courses we discuss and have to experience them intellectually and vicariously, the reported economic value of an experience by others who do, gives SOME information for me and others, that is indeed relevant to the question of "Over-rated as an experience."

I was merely putting a top-end cap out there as known disclaimer for whatever I have to say to those who feel similarly as I do and think about economies and experience from afar.

cheers

vk

[Brian Potash]

Karl,

I will assume you have played Seminole.  If you only played it 1 time, I can see how you can think it is overated.  I was somewhat puzzled myself after play # 1, basically thinking "am I missing something"

But on playing times 2 and 3 I really fell in love with the place, and I was carrying my own bag and never saw the inside of the clubhouse, so it was not the aura that got me.

Standing on the 14th tee with my back to the Atlantic, going back and forth from trap to trap over green # 2 and telling myself my sand work needs to get a lot better, loving how they have no problem keeping the whole course brown/firm even though the members must be tremendously wealthy, smiling ear to ear putting my tee shot on 17 on the green when I know the GCA writeup says "The authors know of no more challenging medium-length one-shotter".

Thats what I love(d) about Seminole.

I didn't say anything about wind.  That course is plenty difficult for most golfers on a windless day.

No way can that course by the MOST overated.

Brian

[JC Jones]

Disclaimer - I LOVE classic golf courses

However, when discussing courses I do not feel that the presence of wind or no wind should dictate the entirety of difficulty.

IMHO, Seminole is the most overrated course in the US.

Karl,

Why?

[JR Potts]

Just a quickie about the strong undercurrent of this thread regarding economic value and "How much would you pay, though?"

I will not pay more than $180 to play a round of golf, that's $10 per hole - it's my own chaos to get at that figure, but that's what it is.

I will not pay more than $100 of flat rate to a caddieif i take one, that's 20-30 an hour and he's going to get a tip on top...the tip amount depending on his performance and if I myself have won at the gambling.

I will not pay more than $35 for a cart, that's almost $2 per hole and I know the economy of purchasing, leasing and maintaining a fleet of carts and anything more is an out and out gouge.  Half that (17.50 per cart) is already 40 - 75% markup in most situations

So, up to $315 for one round of golf with a cart and a caddie but before his tip...that's my limit and I expect it will be my limit for sometime...

And them colloquially I'll tell you that I have declined two chances to play Top 100 private courses, within an hour of playing when the cost went over $249.

Once at Riviera when I was sponsored by a professional for a Thursday morning slot, was asked for $300 (i didn't know there was such a cost) and promptly declined, instead going to play at an amusing old muni in Watts called Los Amigos

And once at at a famous Raynor course you have to access by ferry, when i was playing gratis, but they wanted to gouge my companion for $250.  He was disappointed but would have paid, but I wouldn't let him do it even though we were stuck on an island and instead we hit balls on the range, 1/4 mile towards the exit, caught the next ferry two hours later and played Golf at the lovely Shennecossett at about 2:15pm.

He later got to play the Raynor course with me for $0 and we took full advantage by playing 30 holes.

cheers

vk

And that's why I think that private clubs should charge as much money as possible to unaccompanied guests.  You want to play the course - get invited or pay what they're asking.  There's no testing the waters.

If I'm trying to play a Top 100 private course, I'm prepared to pay whatever the home course feels fit.  And I think after asking for access and gaining acess, balking at a price is really a slap in the face.  Afterall, a lot of clubs have limited unaccompanied time-slots - and if you bail after getting the price, you've likley taken that slot away from another group and cost the club revenue.

Shameful really.  Luckily my club charges well more than $300 for unaccompanied guests so we don't have to deal with these shenanigans.

[Mike_Young]

Just a quickie about the strong undercurrent of this thread regarding economic value and "How much would you pay, though?"

And that's why I think that private clubs should charge as much money as possible to unaccompanied guests.  You want to play it, get invited or pay-up.

If I'm trying to play a Top 100 private course, I'm prepared to pay whatever the home course feels fit.  And I think after asking for access and gaining acess, balking at a price is really a slap in the face.  Afterall, a lot of clubs have limited unaccompanied slots - and if you bail after getting the price, you've likley taken that slot away from another group and cost the Club revenue.

Shameful.

Ryan,
I was thinking the same thing....but I have seen it happen firsthand several times and IMHO they would not be welcomed back....Actually I have seen a former USGA Junior champion and tour player go to the pro shop and ask wht he needed to do at a prominent course and ask what he needed to do...the young man charged him $325 and he paid w/o saying a word.  I have seen a rater go to the same place and make sure he was comped for everything and then ask for a discount on a shirt........
If you have a chance to play that special place..pay the money..$325 is still a deal when you think what it cost the member....and be sure to at least spend a couple of hundred with the pro....that's usually his money...

[Sean_A]

Sean & VK,

While I agree that value/$$ is an important consideration when deciding where to play or which courses to recommend to friends etc., it's a seperate conversation from pure ratings of GCA.  No I will not be plunking down $400 for another go at Pebble or Whistling Straights, but I probably will at Pinehurst.  That decision however has to do with an individual's preferences and economic situation, not golf course rankings.  Now if you'd like to actually discuss an index of quality/$$, then I'm in....A Ferrari's better than a Porsche Turbo which is better than a BMW...Just different price points...As a matter of fact someone could simply take the unofficial GCA rankings and adjust them further by some cost factor...now THAT would be interesting....

Jud

My point is that we all have some sort of hang ups and I don't believe for a second that pure architecture is the sole basis for evaluations.  For one, very few people know that much about architecture or much about individual projects to make architectural proclaimations.  Even those that do know the score have issues about what they want to see on a course and it could be the difference between a top mark or the next best thing (see Doak and short par 4s).  Its a bit of a toss up and it is down to each guy to disclose his hang ups and for each reader to figure out if those hang ups effect the eval enough to taint it.  I make no bones that I look at the experience of the day balanced against the cost if I am picking my favourite courses.  It is my belief that after a very small number of courses the actual quality of design when compared with each other is so slight that only personal preferences make the difference.  I try to keep an open mind, but a $300 green fee is awful hard to overcome - BUT not impossible as one course I think all golfers interested in architecture and history should see will cost about that much.  I have seen two others which cost above that and I would say no, they aren't all that given the cost.  It is what it is, but I am never gonna buy that guys base judgements solely on architecture - no way, no how.

Ciao    

[Karl Kocher]

JC, you pegged me, I have only played Seminole one time and I do agree that some courses grow with frequency.  However, I have only played Shinnecock once as well and see a dramatic difference in shot variation and design variation.  Most clubs do not deserve such a comparison but in the case of Seminole, I believe they have always held themselves in that company.  Thus, the overrated comment.  Top 100 maybe, top 20 (or 10 in some years) not for me.

While I love Ross courses (because I love the use of a green as a holes defense), I do feel that for a player that can carry 250 with the driver, too many of the holes are short clubs to the greens in regulation (the only variation being wind speed).  I am certainly not one to bash shorter courses when they have varied design within the layout(not to mention Ross greens).  However, I do think that there is a reason that Florida clubs are not widely considered the best in the US and it is because they are flat and rely on the wind for defense.  I certainly respect Mr. Doaks past comments on the course and I do think that the fairway approaches are tricky, they just do not seem to be that tricky when playing short clubs into many of them.  

Maybe this is in the "wind is a part of golf" argument read on GCA at times, but when you start to line up seaside designs where wind is a factor and then include all of those in the US (and around the world) I do not feel that Seminole stacks up in that genre let alone with all courses inclusive.  Top 100 maybe, top 20 not for me.

[Eric Strulowitz]

Pinehurst #2.  For th life of me, I could find little "wow" factor with it.  I have played many courses for a forth of the price or  less, that were more interesting and fun.   There are many fine courses in the Sandhills region, I would not even put #2 in the top 5. 

A close second is Cuscowilla.  Not  a bad course at all, but again lacked any "Wow" factor for me, and for the price I felt totally ripped off.

[Adam Clayman]

Hey Tricks. Talk about worthless? I gave you a finite description of poor golf course architecture. What have you given? But text that suggests you're influenced.  The layouts were so uninspiring I can't even remember the names of the nines or on which hole number the mal practice was committed.

[John Kavanaugh]

And once at at a famous Raynor course you have to access by ferry, when i was playing gratis, but they wanted to gouge my companion for $250.  He was disappointed but would have paid, but I wouldn't let him do it even though we were stuck on an island and instead we hit balls on the range, 1/4 mile towards the exit, caught the next ferry two hours later and played Golf at the lovely Shennecossett at about 2:15pm.

He later got to play the Raynor course with me for $0 and we took full advantage by playing 30 holes.

cheers

vk

.

If this is a true story about Fishers Island you should not be allowed to play golf at any course where you are not a member for any price.  I sincerely just said a prayer that you are not a rater and that your friend did not go back to play for free after he too joined the dark side.

[Sean_A]

And once at at a famous Raynor course you have to access by ferry, when i was playing gratis, but they wanted to gouge my companion for $250.  He was disappointed but would have paid, but I wouldn't let him do it even though we were stuck on an island and instead we hit balls on the range, 1/4 mile towards the exit, caught the next ferry two hours later and played Golf at the lovely Shennecossett at about 2:15pm.

He later got to play the Raynor course with me for $0 and we took full advantage by playing 30 holes.

cheers

vk

.

If this is a true story about Fishers Island you should not be allowed to play golf at any course where you are not a member for any price.  I sincerely just said a prayer that you are not a rater and that your friend did not go back to play for free after he too joined the dark side.

Same ole JakaB.  WTF do you care if someone draws a line in the sand about the price of a game of golf?  While I think the mag ranking system is as bogus as a bad apple, I really don't care if X rater plays for free or not.  I just don't get too excited about what he thinks unless I KNOW him and trust his judgement. 

Folks shouldn't get uptight about the FI deal either way.  V was protecting his mate and the pro was protecting the membership (and quite possibly his ass).  Sounds like a reasonable standoff to me. 

Ciao

[Adam Clayman]

V. Did it ever ocurr to you split the 250 with your friend?

[John Kavanaugh]

And once at at a famous Raynor course you have to access by ferry, when i was playing gratis, but they wanted to gouge my companion for $250.  He was disappointed but would have paid, but I wouldn't let him do it even though we were stuck on an island and instead we hit balls on the range, 1/4 mile towards the exit, caught the next ferry two hours later and played Golf at the lovely Shennecossett at about 2:15pm.

He later got to play the Raynor course with me for $0 and we took full advantage by playing 30 holes.

cheers

vk

.

If this is a true story about Fishers Island you should not be allowed to play golf at any course where you are not a member for any price.  I sincerely just said a prayer that you are not a rater and that your friend did not go back to play for free after he too joined the dark side.

Same ole JakaB.  WTF do you care if someone draws a line in the sand about the price of a game of golf?  While I think the mag ranking system is as bogus as a bad apple, I really don't care if X rater plays for free or not.  I just don't get too excited about what he thinks unless I KNOW him and trust his judgement. 

Folks shouldn't get uptight about the FI deal either way.  V was protecting his mate and the pro was protecting the membership (and quite possibly his ass).  Sounds like a reasonable standoff to me. 

Ciao

Sean,

Why not split the $250 and play a great course for $125 each.  Do you believe the guy behind the counter deserved to be embarrassed or harassed with this drama?  Obviously someone made a call to get Kmetz access to the course, do you think they deserved to have their reputation tarnished?

I do apologize to any raters who I offended. I'm sure Kmetz or his companion are not raters and was wrong jumping to that conclusion.

[J_ Crisham]

And once at at a famous Raynor course you have to access by ferry, when i was playing gratis, but they wanted to gouge my companion for $250.  He was disappointed but would have paid, but I wouldn't let him do it even though we were stuck on an island and instead we hit balls on the range, 1/4 mile towards the exit, caught the next ferry two hours later and played Golf at the lovely Shennecossett at about 2:15pm.

He later got to play the Raynor course with me for $0 and we took full advantage by playing 30 holes.

cheers

vk

.

If this is a true story about Fishers Island you should not be allowed to play golf at any course where you are not a member for any price.  I sincerely just said a prayer that you are not a rater and that your friend did not go back to play for free after he too joined the dark side.

Same ole JakaB.  WTF do you care if someone draws a line in the sand about the price of a game of golf?  While I think the mag ranking system is as bogus as a bad apple, I really don't care if X rater plays for free or not.  I just don't get too excited about what he thinks unless I KNOW him and trust his judgement. 

Folks shouldn't get uptight about the FI deal either way.  V was protecting his mate and the pro was protecting the membership (and quite possibly his ass).  Sounds like a reasonable standoff to me. 

Ciao

Sean,  Do you really believe that when you set up a teetime at a private club that you shouldn't honor your end- paying the agreed upon rate whatever that may be? If you think it is too much don't play there again or at worst cancel the tee time well in advance. Why would you think it a right for a nonmember to play a private club for free? Golf at highlevel courses, either public or private is not inexpensive-we all know this-there are no free lunches in life.  Jack

[Mike_Young]

Sean,
Jk is right on this subject. IMHO
It's just wrong....wrong to the person that set it up...wrong to the pro and wrong to the club.  Why do any of us feel so strongly that we should have the right to play any of these places for free....we don't....obviously someone went over there on the ferry thinking they had the right to play free...most clubs require the member to pay for his guest..why would any of us expect to play free when not even playing with a member....it should not be a right but an unexpected gift from a pro or a club at their discretion...and in no way mandatory....JMO...

[Sean_A]

And once at at a famous Raynor course you have to access by ferry, when i was playing gratis, but they wanted to gouge my companion for $250.  He was disappointed but would have paid, but I wouldn't let him do it even though we were stuck on an island and instead we hit balls on the range, 1/4 mile towards the exit, caught the next ferry two hours later and played Golf at the lovely Shennecossett at about 2:15pm.

He later got to play the Raynor course with me for $0 and we took full advantage by playing 30 holes.

cheers

vk

.

If this is a true story about Fishers Island you should not be allowed to play golf at any course where you are not a member for any price.  I sincerely just said a prayer that you are not a rater and that your friend did not go back to play for free after he too joined the dark side.

Same ole JakaB.  WTF do you care if someone draws a line in the sand about the price of a game of golf?  While I think the mag ranking system is as bogus as a bad apple, I really don't care if X rater plays for free or not.  I just don't get too excited about what he thinks unless I KNOW him and trust his judgement.  

Folks shouldn't get uptight about the FI deal either way.  V was protecting his mate and the pro was protecting the membership (and quite possibly his ass).  Sounds like a reasonable standoff to me.  

Ciao

Sean,

Why not split the $250 and play a great course for $125 each.  Do you believe the guy behind the counter deserved to be embarrassed or harassed with this drama?  Obviously someone made a call to get Kmetz access to the course, do you think they deserved to have their reputation tarnished?

I do apologize to any raters who I offended. I'm sure Kmetz or his companion are not raters and was wrong jumping to that conclusion.

JakaB

Assuming everything was kosher about the deal, that is what I would have done.  I don't know the whole story so I am not jumping to any conclusions, that is why I reckon its a fair standoff.  V will (or should) know the possible bridges he burned, but sometimes it has to be done regardless.  Who knows, maybe it was an error on the part of the sponsor, pro or just bad communication.  Given what was written about the incident, perhaps you were too judgmental, but more than that, why would you care enough to invoke "prayer"?  Its sounds like witchcraft the way you say it.

Jack & Mike - see my comments to JakaB.  I don't know enough about the situation to come to a conclusion about someone's character.  Call me slow.  Again, why such emotion about this issue?  We are talking about a round of golf...

Ciao  

[John Kavanaugh]

It is easy to determine that Kmetz is an industry guy just by Googling his name.  Maybe this makes it better or maybe it makes it worse but in no way should he be on this site bragging about his gotcha moment during his triumphant return to play 30 holes for free.

For an industry guy to be on this site complaining about the cost of golf would be like me bitching about the cost of Motor Fuel Tax.

After hearing years and years of complaints about the cost of caddies I suppose we had it coming.  Again, my apologies.

Sean,

Yes, prayer is like witchcraft but when I first read his post my first words were honestly..Oh God no, I can't go through this again.

[C. Squier]

If you have the stones to ask to play without a member's introduction, you should have the stones to pay whatever costs are presented to you.  Next time someone bails on a Fishers Island tee time, you know where to send the PM.  I'm w/ JK on this one.  

It's one thing to have a line drawn in the sand, but you lose the priviledge in this case.  Unaccompanied guest fee Russian Roulette is the game.  

[David Stamm]

Torrey Pines South and Spyglass Hill are tops for me.

[Sean_A]

JakaB & Clint

Maybe you are right about the bragging, if it was bragging - I never met V.  So far as the price of golf, evrybody's got a right and we all know golf is stupidly expensive.  Listen, I don't care that folks get free golf at a private club - no matter which club - its just a game of golf.  I too get the odd free round and accept it gladly.  I don't buy that because a guy behind the counter quotes a price and you are stood there that you must pay it.  What if the guys said $1000, $5000 etc?  We all have our breaking point where we will walk away so don't act high and mighty because a guy walks away quicker than you would.  You lot are quick to jump for the whip and I am glad I don't have to stand in front of your bench or trust you to look after my money - tee hee.

Ciao 

[Ronald Montesano]

RE:  Bay Harbor...still not reading anything of substance, Adam and Andrew.  Here's my substance...you don't like the blind shot...wah...I cry a single tear.  Site value of many greens on the links and quarry nines...A- to A...perched on cliffs overlooking lake or quarry floor.  Movement of fairways...B+ to A-...shots can be worked left and right...par three holes...excellent...each nine has a downhiller moving toward the lake.  the one on the links is a world-class hole, a downhill redan-ish hole, if you will.  I know because my one shot played right to left a bit, taking the slope of the green, ending up a few feet from the hole.  The par four holes that lie inland on the course (2, 5 and 6) give the necessary respite from lakeside overkill.  The 8th is a decent par three, certainly no worse than found at many class courses.  The 9th is an abomination, but 7.5 out of 9 makes for a reputable half.

Heading to the quarry, the first two holes get you there.  They are transitional holes of decent quality.  The nine opens up in its grandeur from three to seven.  Eight and nine belong on the links nine, in my opinion.  If there is a shaky hole on the nine, it is #6, the short but tricky par four with the green set in the wetlands.

It amazes me that you guys call for weaker challenge on a resort course.  The rest of Boyne has weak, resort-style shot values.  Bay Harbor is a player's 27 (for which 18 I can vouch.)  Honestly, what would you armchair quarterbacks have done with the land?  As I said, it's a tricky proposition...maybe 27 great holes were not to be found out there, but that's the number they wanted and came up with.

I can go deeper into my attraction to the layout...can you do the same for your detraction?  Have at it if you can, lads!

[Ronald Montesano]

RE:  The $$$ issue.

I had the opportunity to play both Ballyhack and Kinloch this year.  As both are private reserves, I knew that the tag was going to be hefty.  In my capacity as a blogger for Travelgolf.com, for which I am not paid, I have been invited to play some courses for free.  I subscribe to a fairly complex evaluative rule:  find the good and the bad, weigh them and determine if a review can be written.  There have been some situations where I informed the course management that I could not in good faith write a review of any positive nature.  Some understood, while others gnashed their teeth, beat their breasts and howled to the moon.

As a languages teacher, utilizing our native tongues to establish WITH ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY the financial arrangements is my forte.  If you go in thinking it will be free and it is not; if you anticipate $50 and it is 5 times that amount, YOU ARE TO BLAME.  If an arrangement has been lined up and is then reneged upon, shame on the club.  Ultimately, as relationships are in our brief time on this planet, we must weigh the consequences of making a public statement versus sucking it up and paying the freight.  To each his own, say I.

[C. Sturges]

Sorry, but I have to say Lost Canyons, where the golf pro exclaimed how they were in the top 100 and my worst, Sand Pines!  The number 1 golf course of the year, and it is man made and terrible!  The course could hav ben so good, but no and then the insult of the pond for the finishing holes.  It still makes me shake my head!
Thanks for letting me get that out,
Chris

[V. Kmetz]

Mike, Ryan and the voluminous posters who posted since my last mention.

what the heck is wrong with you...you don't know me.  i merely said I wouldn't pay more than about $300 for any round of golf and that I said that to honestly to color whatever contributions i might make to the economic undercurrent the thread was following and to give provenance as to the extent I've gone when it comes to that value.  Let me see you on an island when the ferryman asks for an amount you won't pay.

i'm not bragging, i'n not a rater, i'm not an industry guy, I'm a semi-employed caddie, former Caddiemaster in Westchester who happens to have exchanged a lot of Golf and alliances over the years.  I was President of the Metropolitan Caddiemasters Association from 2006-7 and left the payroll side of the business to go back to school at age 40, supporting my house and my friends with all I've got on my shoulders.

I don't pinch, milk or mooch anything, as a matter of fact my reputation when I was a gate-keeper at two exclusive clubs was "The One Way" street because I gave everybody access when they needed it, but never asked for any myself.

I'm a respected, generous person the nicest most courteous guest and was treated just fine by both clubs in question, there was no acrimony, no controversy just a declination of paying a fee...the nice people we dealt with were nearly as embarassed to ask as I was to gulp, 'No."

No bridges were burned, no one was put out...as a matter of fact a phone call was made in the case of the Raynor course where the head pro was engaged and considerate enough to phone my unaccompanyning sponsor - an industry guy - and apologized for the confusion and asked me and friend back the next season when it was convenient.

It was on that trip where we played 30 holes...for free, as we were given the run of the place.

And for the record, I NEVER said it was Fishers you all did...you are the ones who would embarrass any remaining staff by specifying the exchange, and think me worthy of embarrassment based on your mis-construal of my post and what it could possibly say about me.
  
I don't want to drag the thread three subsets deep, but I feel many insinuated I had some depressed ethical sense because I wouldn't pay whatever it is I judge is too much, in this case $315.00...

But that's only your 3rd Post KO...here's where I beat up yer' old gramma after the fight

1.  First of all, the moment they wanted anything, i was no longer a guest, but a customer and they not a host but a proprietor.  When I go to my friends' house for a weekend, I'm a guest, he boards me and I do my absolute best to not disturb his home environment.

2.  The clubs have the absolute right to charge whatever they want for such kinds of things as I have the absolute right to pay it or not and register my opinion either by the act alone, or amplifying my opinion as I have here.  

3.  I am a Golfer, a Caddie, Caddiemaster, GCA fanatic...I love Golf and all the fine traditions it represents, both individual locales and as a collective notion.  I'm grateful that these wonderful old clubs have mostly excellent stewardship by well-heeled people who have an interest in its exclusivity as much as its worth to GCA and that there would be no Riviera if I and those like me had to steward it. However, I love guitars too and appreciate the beautiful rich tones of some acoustic Martins and electric Fenders, but there are enough wonderful guitars, like courses, out there under $300 that sound every bit as unique as either of those to my ear, that I don't have to spend over $300 for them...so there too the world who have to go on without my song played on a Martin.  ***Comparatively THAT $300 buys me years of active and remembered recreation and amusement.

4.  You guys have your price point too, even the members of the finer clubs themselves have a price point and on rare occasion leave a classic or US Open course because the point gets eclipsed.  If Riviera was charging $5000.00 for the round would it then be OK if I declined?  Someday, it could be that figure.

5.  If I thought I could control the level of fortune required for my declination to precisely impact remote player X losing his one and only opportunity to play Riviera because I was the last player allowed on the Unaccompanied List for that particular day...I would never leave my house again for fear my footsteps would crush an ant that was meant to save the world.  Golly, what if I was just sick?  It would still be a rotten irony to Player X, no matter what the reason.  I sleep peacefully.

cheers

vk

[John_Cullum]

VK

You two could have played for $125.00 a piece, but chose to be above that.

If it's not Fishers island, say so

JC

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