[Matt_Ward]

Adam:

We agree !

Just be interesting to see a top rate ponderosa pine situated layout in NM -- Paa-Ko is good -- just not that good as you previously stated.

[Jud_T]

Most Overrated:

Whistling Straights Irish Course
Rich Harvest Farms

I would take exception to those who claim Pinehurst #2 and Talking Stick North are overrated.  Re-Pinehurst, I have a feeling that once the renovation is done people here will be genuflecting toward the southeast...

[Tim Bert]

I would take exception to anyone that would take exception to my comments.  

I stated very clearly that I enjoy all of the coruses at the resort.  While the subsequent courses may not have been built if Bandon Dunes had "flopped", the fact that it didn't flop and that the others were built doesn't qualify it as one of the 5 greatest modern courses.  It is a wonderful course, but it remains over-rated in my opinion.

Trails is a wonderful accomplishment on the nice and unique piece of property it rests upon, but as I said before it wouldn't inspire a return for me in isolation.  I would have visited the resort mulitple times if Pacific Dunes were the only course on the property.  Not trying to project that opinion on anyone else, but it remains over-rated for me.

Not sure why the phrase over-rated carries such a negative vibe for so many people.  I can love a course and it can be over-rated all at once.  That's true for every one of the courses I listed as over-rated, except for River, which I don't care for one bit.

[Matt_Ward]

I'll say this again -- i have to wonder how much the $$ aspect plays a role in whether a course is overrated or not (from the public side of course).

If Pinehurst #2 were only $100 -- would the reaction be the same ?

[archie_struthers]

 

As a strictly archtiectural analysis , I'd have a hard time thinking Pebble wasn't awfully good...you can't find holes like 8 and 9 too many places on this planet ....if you are looking at pace of play , food , amenities , access , cost  it's a totally different question

[Phil_the_Author]

I am in complete agreement on Pinehurst #2. After playing it I walked off wondering what the hue and cry over ots supposed greatness was all about and still do. I'm hoping that C&C can recreate whatever magic was once there.

Now to really surprise Matt, and a few others, near the very top of my list of over-rated courses is Bethpage... RED! It is a good course but has too many pedestrian holes intermingled with some great ones. 2-4, 6-7, 10-11 are all average holes and the collection of par-threes are among Tilly's poorest in my opinion.

[Sean_A]

I'll say this again -- i have to wonder how much the $$ aspect plays a role in whether a course is overrated or not (from the public side of course).

If Pinehurst #2 were only $100 -- would the reaction be the same ?

Matt

For $100 I am willing to find out.  For what they charge I am not willing to find out.  

Tim

I am with you.  Over-rated in no way implies poor or average or anything other than over-rated.

Ciao

[Jerry Kluger]

 Tim: I don't disagree with you that looking at GW's ratings that BD is probably rated too high but I am not necessarily limiting my view to what the GW raters believe.  I think it is under-appreciated for what it is and how significant it is in the world of golf course architecture.  In my view the Ocean Course should be rated in the top 10 as it is such a significant course and Pete Dye was given the opportunity to tweak it over the years and makes it better and better.

Matt: It always scares me when I am reminded how much I agree with you about some courses - I too did not get Maidstone plus I was there on a cool day and never got to see the sights at the beach club.

[mike_malone]

 I love Sean Arble. He is willing to speak his mind.

[Matt_Ward]

Sean:

Thanks for your candor -- I have always believed that cost bears a clear relationship to whether a course is deemed to be overrated or not.

I personally like Pinehurst #2 -- just not at $400 a round.

Jerry:

Like minds think a like !

I would also throw Congressional into the mix -- long slog with only the DC connection pushing it.

[Tim Bert]

Jerry - I didn't mean to call out Golfweek, it is just a convenient pulse for me because my opinion is generally more closely aligned with that publication than the others.  I think Bandon Dunes is over-rated in all of the publication, but only relative to my opinion of the course. 

I am willing to compromise and call Bandon Dunes under-appreciated and over-rated.

[JC Jones]

Who was it that defended Bay Harbor?  That course deserves no defense.  Anything
that Aurthur Hills touches turns to sewage.  That was one of the best pieces of land
for a golf course available in the last 20 years.  I watched the development of that course
from day 1.  I walked the land before it was built at the age of 12.  I knew at the still-stupid
age of 13 that it was a hack job.  No. 1 is a good hole, but it shouldn't be No. 1.  Who
the hell opens a course with a blind tee shot, or at least a resort course.  It slows down
the whole course.  And the Quarry nine is fun, but nothing to make you want to go
out and buy your wife some new lingerie after she lets you skip a "shower" to let you
play.


Andrew

Andrew,
 Those comments about BH jumped off the page at me too.

Tricks is either a friend of someone involved, or has absolutely no critical eye for architecture.

I've forgotten the names of the nines, but, there was a par five on the back nine that had water on three sides of the green. The fairway was built up too high to see this aspect of the hole, and was in my experience, one of the best cases of mal-practice, I've seen ever.

Andrew,

You and I must be about the same age.  I was there when they detonated the old cement operation.  I did not get a chance to walk the property prior to development but I can tell you that I agree with you completely regarding the post-development product.  I don't know whether it was the restriction of the housing development or what but all the 9's are terribly uninspiring.  Moreover, the holes where you actually get out to the lake are lacking in any interest whatsoever.

A true disappointment.  The Inn at Bay Harbor, though, is a first class operation!

[Chris Roselle]

Harbor Town Golf Links.....

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

The original 18 at BD is overrated -- you don't need to back pedal.

The places that are stirring the drink there are Pac and Old Mac.

Kidd has done better elsewhere -- unfortunately, there are a number of ordinary holes at BD -- including the closer.

[Jerry Kluger]

Tim -BINGO!

[Sean_A]

I love Sean Arble. He is willing to speak his mind.

Mayday

I love Mayday.  He doesn't take remarks about golf courses personally.  

Anymore tree work happening at RG?  

Matt

I am confident that issues other than architecture effect EVERYBODY'S perception of a course - we are human afterall.  It would just be nice if folks owned up to it.

Ciao

[Michael Dugger]

Tim:

The original 18 at BD is overrated -- you don't need to back pedal.

The places that are stirring the drink there are Pac and Old Mac.

Kidd has done better elsewhere -- unfortunately, there are a number of ordinary holes at BD -- including the closer.

This is just Matt's opinion, FYI.

Bandon Dunes is a fine test of golf and a soul stirring round.  I don't understand why people feel the need to rip on it.

Oh wait, I understand why, because it's a part of the best golf complex in the world.

[Jon Wiggett]

  Royal Dornach and NGLA for me.RD..3,4 and five play the same.6 is forced into the side of a hill.And2 is a mound of dirt.The routing is a little goofy on the back.NGLA you ask the caddy "Is that good" too many times in the round for me.And I guess since it has been copied so much I did not see anything I had not seen before.Some miniture golf courses have windmills.

  Anthony

Anthony,


where is Royal Dornach?

Jon

[Derek_Duncan]

Ocean Forest.

[Matt_Ward]

Michael:

Go to the dictionary and look up the word overrated.

I have the utmost respect for the facility but the stir the makes the drink go are Pac and Old Mac.

Kidd has done better elsewhere -- the original Bandon is a good 18 -- is it as good as the ratings would indicate?

Not in my mind -- you see it differently -- so be it. "(S)oul stirring" -- really.

[Mike Wagner]

Bandon overrated???  Wow, I just hope more and more people see it like this so when I go next time I can play it over and over.  Love the others, but BD is still my favorite.  

[V. Kmetz]

Just a quickie about the strong undercurrent of this thread regarding economic value and "How much would you pay, though?"

I will not pay more than $180 to play a round of golf, that's $10 per hole - it's my own chaos to get at that figure, but that's what it is.

I will not pay more than $100 of flat rate to a caddieif i take one, that's 20-30 an hour and he's going to get a tip on top...the tip amount depending on his performance and if I myself have won at the gambling.

I will not pay more than $35 for a cart, that's almost $2 per hole and I know the economy of purchasing, leasing and maintaining a fleet of carts and anything more is an out and out gouge.  Half that (17.50 per cart) is already 40 - 75% markup in most situations

So, up to $315 for one round of golf with a cart and a caddie but before his tip...that's my limit and I expect it will be my limit for sometime...

And them colloquially I'll tell you that I have declined two chances to play Top 100 private courses, within an hour of playing when the cost went over $249.

Once at Riviera when I was sponsored by a professional for a Thursday morning slot, was asked for $300 (i didn't know there was such a cost) and promptly declined, instead going to play at an amusing old muni in Watts called Los Amigos

And once at at a famous Raynor course you have to access by ferry, when i was playing gratis, but they wanted to gouge my companion for $250.  He was disappointed but would have paid, but I wouldn't let him do it even though we were stuck on an island and instead we hit balls on the range, 1/4 mile towards the exit, caught the next ferry two hours later and played Golf at the lovely Shennecossett at about 2:15pm.

He later got to play the Raynor course with me for $0 and we took full advantage by playing 30 holes.

cheers

vk

.

[Ronald Montesano]

JC and Andrew.

On the links nine, the only hole that is worthless is the ninth, a jungled mess if there ever was one.

I cannot fathom how you can call the holes along the water uninspired.  Do you either lash yourself to the front of a vessel a la Titanic, Leonardo DiCaprio-ing your fair maiden (in this case, your club) or consider the round uninspired?  Crazy thoughts, yours.

Let's walk through the holes; I challenge you to discuss how you can find them uninspired, overrated, whatever.

And by the way, it's a tricky piece of land.  It is in no way as easy as you or I might think to slide quality golf holes into a piece of property.

Keep in mind that I saw Quarry and Links, missing the third nine.

The fact that you might suggest that someone knows someone reveals the lengths to which you will go to substantiate a crumpling, worthless viewpoint.

[Jud_T]

Sean & VK,

While I agree that value/$$ is an important consideration when deciding where to play or which courses to recommend to friends etc., it's a seperate conversation from pure ratings of GCA.  No I will not be plunking down $400 for another go at Pebble or Whistling Straights, but I probably will at Pinehurst.  That decision however has to do with an individual's preferences and economic situation, not golf course rankings.  Now if you'd like to actually discuss an index of quality/$$, then I'm in....A Ferrari's better than a Porsche Turbo which is better than a BMW...Just different price points...As a matter of fact someone could simply take the unofficial GCA rankings and adjust them further by some cost factor...now THAT would be interesting....

[Karl Kocher]

Disclaimer - I LOVE classic golf courses

However, when discussing courses I do not feel that the presence of wind or no wind should dictate the entirety of difficulty.

IMHO, Seminole is the most overrated course in the US.

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