[Matt_Ward]

Be curious to know those courses that people feel are vastly overrated --

It would be helpful to have them grouped in some sort of catregory.

For those available to be played ...

Those $200 or more to play

Those $100 or more to play

Those below the above amt

Then those that are private.

There's been discussion here on whether certain architects are worth seeing -- I'd like to get a sense of what is really those layouts in America which are frankly much ado about nothing much. thanks ...

[C. Squier]

Matt, my first question is why does it have anything to do with money?  I've never ever given a thought to how much a course costs to play when comparing it to others.  Too many factors go into how much it cost for it to be an apples to apples comparison. 

[Richard Hetzel]

Two words:

Bay Harbor (MI)

[Sean Leary]

Black Mesa
Glenwild
Red Ledges
Wolf Creek

The Matt Ward thinks they are great category.......














 

[PThomas]

for private i dont think anything can top Rich Harvest

[Matt_Ward]

Sean:

Fair enough -- give me your reasons -- if it's simply a sarcastic ploy then move on to another thread.

Paul:

I do agree that Rich Harvest would certainly be a main contender.

Clint:

$$ can make a difference in terms of overall perception. If someone plays a place and it's got all the hype leading into it then the fee charged can make a major difference. If that same course charged lower -- it's possible the thoughts could be different. Pinehurst #2 is a great example on that front.

[Steve Salmen]

I would define overrated as being giddy with anticipation on the first tee and just deflated upon putting out on 18.  It's when you finish and think, "what's the big deal about this course?"  Underrated courses would be the opposite, where I had not expectations and was blown away.

I think Cascata, Talking Stick North, the aforementioned Rich Harvest, and Butler National are overrated.  Royal Troon is the most overrated course I've played in the UK.

Off the top of my head, I'd say Skokie and Barton Hills were underrated.

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

Just curious to know -- if you paid $100 or less for Cascata would it have made a difference in your assessment ?

[Sean_A]

From a classic course perspective I think a good percentage of the Golfweek top 100 could be seen as over-rated.  What are the concensus courses and what are the courses in a battle with god knows how many others not ranked?  As an example I could pick Rolling Green & Point O'Woods and ask what the heck these courses have which elevate them to top 100?  Nice courses for sure, but so what, there are plenty of nice courses about.  Oakland Hills is imo way over-rated though I think it belongs somehwere in the top 100.  But remember, when I speak of this I mean in terms of courses I prefer.  I don't know if one course is better than another and I don't really care.  There are relatively few courses which we can say blow us away and then the rest of the very good courses are much of a muchness and down to preferences - whatever those preferences may be.  Often times it could be aesthetic stuff like cart paths, or course set up, or fairway lines or trees or rough which bug us slightly and take away from the experience we had hoped for.  So preferences play such a huge role that it sort of bothers me when guys talk in terms of pure architecture when I and everyone else knows this is total bullshit for all but the very best courses.  I just wish folks would admit it and then tell us their hangups when they offer an opinion.

Ciao
 

[PThomas]

From a classic course perspective I think a good percentage of the Golfweek top 100 could be seen as over-rated.  What are the concensus courses and what are the courses in a battle with god knows how many others not ranked?  As an example I could pick Rolling Green & Point O'Woods and ask what the heck these courses have which elevate them to top 100?  Nice courses for sure, but so what, there are plenty of nice courses about.  Oakland Hills is imo way over-rated though I think it belongs somehwere in the top 100.  But remember, when I speak of this I mean in terms of courses I prefer.  I don't know if one course is better than another and I don't really care.  There are relatively few courses which we can say blow us away and then the rest of the very good courses are much of a muchness and down to preferences - whatever those preferences may be.  Often times it could be aesthetic stuff like cart paths, or course set up, or fairway lines or trees or rough which bug us slightly and take away from the experience we had hoped for.  So preferences play such a huge role that it sort of bothers me when guys talk in terms of pure architecture when I and everyone else knows this is total bullshit for all but the very best courses.  I just wish folks would admit it and then tell us their hangups when they offer an opinion.

Ciao
 

Hi Sean - i must disagree with re Rolling Green...i played it a few years ago and was really impressed, thinking it was perhaps the best partkland course i ever played...since that time they have done work on the course to make it even better, i understand

[J_ Crisham]

East Lake may be the most overrated and overpriced club I have played. It's a $350 day with lunch and a caddy accompanied. Thanks but no thanks ever again!                                 Jack

[Mac Plumart]

Jack...

You are off my Christmas card list!!   

[J_ Crisham]

Jack...

You are off my Christmas card list!!   

Sorry but it is just not that good for what you pay-take away the clubhouse and Bobby Jones and you have a handful of good holes and a lot of uninspired golf especially the back nine.I've played it on 3 different occasions and probably won't again-too much good golf it Atlanta elsewhere. Had more fun at Rivermont for what it's worth-but then again a day with Cupit is priceless!
                                                                                             Jack

[Anthony Gray]

  Royal Dornach and NGLA for me.RD..3,4 and five play the same.6 is forced into the side of a hill.And2 is a mound of dirt.The routing is a little goofy on the back.NGLA you ask the caddy "Is that good" too many times in the round for me.And I guess since it has been copied so much I did not see anything I had not seen before.Some miniture golf courses have windmills.

  Anthony

[Mike_Young]

East Lake may be the most overrated and overpriced club I have played. It's a $350 day with lunch and a caddy accompanied. Thanks but no thanks ever again!                                 Jack

Agree..it has become a golf factory....

If one looks a golf course like they do good regional or local restaurants then it would be fair to say that one has to be "rated" to be "overrated"...right???   The typical USA resort or signature course is comparable to dining at a high end chain restaurant such as Ruth Chris or Morton's etc....they are good but not quite what the lesser known local restaurant around the corner brings to the table....
So many of our USA resorts and signature courses have such high maintenance budgets and in many cases are located in such good locations that maintenance level and location play a HUGE part in rating these ....so for perspective I will list some IMHO overated national courses vs. their local counterparts
Atlanta CC rates better than East Lake
Indian Creek and Pine Tree over Seminole
Milwaukee CC over Whistling Straights
Secession over /Chechessee 
AND for me....
Peachtree over Augusta National
Merion over Pine Valley
Shinnecock over everything.... 

[Matt_Ward]

Jack:

If the price at East Lake were 50% less -- would your take on the course have been different ?

[PThomas]

East Lake may be the most overrated and overpriced club I have played. It's a $350 day with lunch and a caddy accompanied. Thanks but no thanks ever again!                                 Jack

Agree..it has become a golf factory....

If one looks a golf course like they do good regional or local restaurants then it would be fair to say that one has to be "rated" to be "overrated"...right???   The typical USA resort or signature course is comparable to dining at a high end chain restaurant such as Ruth Chris or Morton's etc....they are good but not quite what the lesser known local restaurant around the corner brings to the table....
So many of our USA resorts and signature courses have such high maintenance budgets and in many cases are located in such good locations that maintenance level and location play a HUGE part in rating these ....so for perspective I will list some IMHO overated national courses vs. their local counterparts
Atlanta CC rates better than East Lake
Indian Creek and Pine Tree over Seminole
Milwaukee CC over Whistling Straights
Secession over /Chechessee 
AND for me....
Peachtree over Augusta National
Merion over Pine Valley
Shinnecock over everything.... 

Mike - i played Chechesee which i thought was quite nice..pls explain why you liked Secession was better

[Mike_Young]

Paul,
What I was trying to convey by comparing local courses above was that yes..I also thought Chechessee was quite nice....and enjoy playing it....but the overall experience at Secession is better to me and the way the bunkers are maintained makes it seem like a much more fair experience...IMHO long bermuda grass used to mimic "shaggy" bunkers takes away....but in no way is it a bad course...just overated in my opinion....

[Mark_F]

Royal Dornach me. RD..3,4 and five play the same.6 is forced into the side of a hill.And2 is a mound of dirt.The routing is a little goofy on the back.

Good Lord.  

I know the USA is in desperate need of cheap oil to power all of those environmentally irresponsible SUVs, but did you really have to annexe Scotland to provide it?

[Matt_Ward]

Mark:

You're so right -- we need to handle just our backyard for the discussion of this thread.

[Ian Andrew]

Royal Dornach and NGLA for me.RD..3,4 and five play the same.6 is forced into the side of a hill.And2 is a mound of dirt.The routing is a little goofy on the back.NGLA you ask the caddy "Is that good" too many times in the round for me.And I guess since it has been copied so much I did not see anything I had not seen before.Some miniture golf courses have windmills.

Anthony

The horror... the horror... 

You picked two courses from my personal top 10.
Wow, I don't know what to say really....

[Ronald Montesano]

I think I know that...

Hetzel is wrong when it comes to the two nines at Bay Harbor that I played.  The Links and The Quarry are terrific nines, filled with challenging shots and beautiful vistas.  The course does not play so long from anywhere that it can only be enjoyed by a long-hitting elite.

Anthony Gray is one funny BLEEP. 

I can't think of any reason to call a course "over-rated."  The only reason it might be thus is that you, dear golfer, have worked yourself into such a lather to play it that you won't be satisfied with anything less than a topographical orgasm.  When I prepared to play Ballyhack and Kinloch last summer, I expected nothing and was therefore thrilled with what I experienced.  I have no need to play Augusta National as I have now played Kinloch.  I have no need to play another rugged heathland course as I have played Ballyhack.

I've played wretched courses, but none that I raised to a pillar before playing them.

That said, Saratoga National and The Monster at Concord Lakes came pretty close to letting me down, as it is one relentless hole after another, one relentless carry or trip down a slim neck after the previous.

[J_ Crisham]

Matt Ward,  No, East Lake is just very underwhelming for me. Wouldn't make top 10 in Philly, MET area,Boston or Chicago in my opinion.
           Jack

[mike_beene]

colonial.A nice course but classic river bottom flat.A sameness to the par 4s.This gets exaggerated on a par 70 when the first hole is a par 5.

[V. Kmetz]

In the last years:

1.  everything I've played or heard described associated with the names Trump and Fazio.  unfortunately local Met Area publications and periodicals advertise the exact reverse.

2.  big-money projects within sight of Manhattan...Liberty, Bayonne, Manhattan Woods...

3.  ...and one further up the Hudson...Hudson National (but see item 1)

Of a classic character:

1.  Fenway - Five suberb holes (1,2,6,15, 16) three solid holes (3,4,5) and the rest is 10 holes of sharp, awkward slopes, quirks, blindess and little joy.  just play 1-6 and repeat twice.  No three shot  or 4.5 holes from #3 until #18?  Disqualifying before the other
stuff.  Bad piece of property

2.  Sleepy Hollow - it kills me to say this because of its CBM lineage, Tillie input and enormous contribution from GCAers I respect like Mr. Bahto, but I just think that property - like most of Fenway - is just damn unfriendly for what constitutes good golf.  i'm positive its better post-renovation, I've only seen pictures. and let's remember I'm only saying OVER rated, not terrible.

cheers

vk

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