[Dan Kelly]

Lots of interesting discussion about the various holes here; anyone have thoughts on #8, one of my favorite short par 4s I've played?

I'm very fond of it -- as I am fond of pretty much any par-4 short enough to tempt (and then, perhaps, punish) the longest hitters.

Made a rare birdie on it Saturday.

And then, on Sunday afternoon, the closing sixsome -- playing a two-man scramble -- played it from an up tee: 245, I think. The young bucks went for the green, and ended in some grief. We Old Guys played it as knock-down driver, wedge pitch, putt -- birdie, earning us our only Skins of the round.

(Missed six more skins at 15, where we couldn't manage to make a little 3- or 4-foot par putt -- again after playing the hole more conservatively than our longer-hitting opponents. DAMN!)

[PCCraig]

Isn't there a hole at Old Elm like 6?

Obviously, Old Elm doesn't have nearly the same amount of movement in the land and they are two very different courses, but I'm going through the holes and can't think of one that plays the same as #6 at Lawsonia....maybe #4??

[Jud_T]

Pat,

I've only played Old Elm once but I thought I recalled a similar tee shot down the hill to an uphill green.  Could be Alzheimers setting in.

Phil,

As for #8, I really like it. Sunday I pulled a tee shot past the bunker into the right rough and was between an 8 & 9 iron in.  Went with the 8, it bounded over and I hacked it up and walked away with a 6.  Very good short 4.  If the tee is back as it was Sunday it's a challenge to decide how much of the lip of the bunker you can carry, and as short right is a horrible option on the approach you end up as I did, tempted to overclub.

[George Freeman]

I think the 8th is pretty darn good hole.  I really like that the further and more left you go, the better angle you have back up the hill to the green.  Attempting to cut the corner to chew off some distance leaves you with a difficult short iron over an imposing bunker.

But what I think really makes the hole are the back bunkers and the drop off at the rear of the green.  These especially come into play if you take the more direct route to the green from the right and over-club to try to avoid the fronting bunker.  If you get your tee ball out left and far enough you’ll have an approach directly up the length of the green with no fronting bunker to toil with.  If this green had a grass “backboard” I think the interest of the hole would be greatly diminished.

Another blind-ish tee shot Winick!  I love ‘em.

During my first go around this weekend I hit a perfect drive near the end of the fairway towards the big tree.  With a gap wedge in my hand I got a little too aggressive to the back pin and bounded over into the rear bunker (firm greens!).  From there I proceeded to card a 6.  I hit to the middle of the green the next two rounds!

[PCCraig]

Another blind-ish tee shot Winick!  I love ‘em.

During my first go around this weekend I hit a perfect drive near the end of the fairway towards the big tree.  With a gap wedge in my hand I got a little too aggressive to the back pin and bounded over into the rear bunker (firm greens!).  From there I proceeded to card a 6.  I hit to the middle of the green the next two rounds!

Thankfully you're partner that round, through some very creative (almost Bear Stearns-like) accounting, managed to negotiate enough strokes for you both that your 6 on #8 turned into a 6, net 3!!  

#8 is an awesome short par-4 with a TON of strategy. As we all saw it with the back right pin in firm conditions, I thought it was best to hit something about 240-250 off the tee to the left center of the fairway to give me a full ~90 yard swing where I could land a SW in the middle of the green. I think that back bunker got a lot of play this past weekend with people flying wedges to the back of the green and having their balls bounce right off.

If the pin is up front, short or right off the tee turns the 2nd shot into a very tough one to get close to the pin. I've actually found for that pin it's worth to hit Driver hard towards the 9th tee to give yourself the best angle for a pitch/SW to the tucked pin. (As if it were that easy).

The other short (er) par-4 at Lawsonia that I love is the 15th. The tee shot is perfectly dictated by the ridge in the fairway and the player either has to a) hit driver to the right side of the fairway to have the shortest path to the green, but be partially blocked out by trees on his approach, b) "bail" out left and avoid the bunker/trees but if not hit hard enough the ridge creates a semi-blind 2nd shot or 3) take the Calcutt route and hit it hard over the ridge and flip a wedge to the green.

You could make the case that the back nine may be less interesting tee to green, but has the much more interesting set of greens as #10, #11, #12, #15, #17, & #18 are all awesome with 15 and 17 being my favorite.

[Phil McDade]

I think the 8th is pretty darn good hole.  I really like that the further and more left you go, the better angle you have back up the hill to the green.  Attempting to cut the corner to chew off some distance leaves you with a difficult short iron over an imposing bunker.

But what I think really makes the hole are the back bunkers and the drop off at the rear of the green.  These especially come into play if you take the more direct route to the green from the right and over-club to try to avoid the fronting bunker.  If you get your tee ball out left and far enough you’ll have an approach directly up the length of the green with no fronting bunker to toil with.  If this green had a grass “backboard” I think the interest of the hole would be greatly diminished.

Another blind-ish tee shot Winick!  I love ‘em.

During my first go around this weekend I hit a perfect drive near the end of the fairway towards the big tree.  With a gap wedge in my hand I got a little too aggressive to the back pin and bounded over into the rear bunker (firm greens!).  From there I proceeded to card a 6.  I hit to the middle of the green the next two rounds!

George:

You've hit on exactly why I like this hole so much. It's visually quite interesting on the tee -- the tempting line is directly at the green, and the wiser or more conservative player may opt for thinking a gentle fade over the bunker/mound will do. But Langford visually hid the best line (while making obvious the more dangerous or less-promising line) -- the one that goes furthest left. That's the line that gives one the best angle of attack into a green surrounded by lots of trouble. Real subtle and artful stuff from Langford; maybe not the most challenging hole at Lawsonia, but one that packs in a lot of architecture, and varied ways to play, on a hole less than 350 yds from the tips.

[George Freeman]

The other short (er) par-4 at Lawsonia that I love is the 15th. The tee shot is perfectly dictated by the ridge in the fairway and the player either has to a) hit driver to the right side of the fairway to have the shortest path to the green, but be partially blocked out by trees on his approach, b) "bail" out left and avoid the bunker/trees but if not hit hard enough the ridge creates a semi-blind 2nd shot or 3) take the Calcutt route and hit it hard over the ridge and flip a wedge to the green.

Pat - I'm pretty sure that if you find the fairway on #15, regardless of where, you will have a open shot to the green.  It may be blind, but you shouldn't be encroached by trees.  The one exception is if you play a short iron with a 15 yard right-to-left ball flight from the far right edge of the fairway 

[PCCraig]

The other short (er) par-4 at Lawsonia that I love is the 15th. The tee shot is perfectly dictated by the ridge in the fairway and the player either has to a) hit driver to the right side of the fairway to have the shortest path to the green, but be partially blocked out by trees on his approach, b) "bail" out left and avoid the bunker/trees but if not hit hard enough the ridge creates a semi-blind 2nd shot or 3) take the Calcutt route and hit it hard over the ridge and flip a wedge to the green.

Pat - I'm pretty sure that if you find the fairway on #15, regardless of where, you will have a open shot to the green.  It may be blind, but you shouldn't be encroached by trees.  The one exception is if you play a short iron with a 15 yard right-to-left ball flight from the far right edge of the fairway 

 

That's coming from a guy with a 15 yard left to right ballflight with a short iron!!

[George Freeman]

A few pics of #6 (from 2009):



Looking back up the hill


The view from #9 fairway looking at #6 green.  This angle really shows the ramp leading up to the green.

[Norman Olsen]

Want to start off by giving a standing O to George F., what a fantastic weekend of golf it was. The course and company were top notch and we even dodged the forecasted 70% chance rain/thunderstorms.  Aside from my partner not showing for Saturday's round (and Bill Seitz and Rick Shefchik giving me a best ball tag team, top rope body slam style beatdown) everything worked out perfectly.  Also, much thanks to Dan M. for the well prepared (I mean he had Langford's daughter on the phone!) and informative L&M presentation Sat. night.  As a GCA newbie, I still have a lot to learn regarding golf course architecture but I can now say that I am at least moderately knowledgeable of L&M. 

I can't say enough good things about the course, most of which have been covered extensively by previous posts but I will add a few things that I found interesting after all said and done.  I was following the mashie thread closely for the few weeks leading up to the event and must admit I was a little skeptical of the 6 hole, par 5/par 3 stretch beginning on hole 9.  After playing the 14th hole for the first time, I couldn’t believe how much variety those 6 holes had.  No feeling of redundancy whatsoever.  I agree 14 would be a stronger hole w/o the trees but after getting beat up on 13 both days it felt good to have a more inviting target from the teebox. 

Just like most of the fellow mashies, the blind tee shots did not bother me much other than the first time around.  Coming from a guy that has never had an easy time finding the fairway, my playing companions this past weekend will attest to that, blind tee shots are typically unbearable.  Not this weekend, at least not so much on Sunday, the fairways were wide enough and there were definitive targets that clearly marked the holes.  I brought 18 balls with me on this trip, always planning for the worst of tee weekends, dont laugh, and I came home with 12 new balls.  That made the weekend that much more enjoyable and inexpensive!

My favorite three hole stretch would have to be 6-7-8 or maybe even 7-8-9. Hole 8 is one of my top 3 favorite holes on the course (in addition to holes 13 and 15) because the wide open tee still needs to be precise in order to come out with birdie. Most balls will have a short iron into the green but the angle and distance of your approach will greatly affect your score. The difference between a 9-iron and sand wedge approach on that hole is substantial. I haven’t heard many people on this thread give love to hole 9 yet, is there a reason?  I think the down hill tee shot is a lot of fun and knowing that the second shot will be demanding it has you thinking how far right you really can take it.  The second shot is blind and extremely difficult with the gigantic bunkers pinching the fairway but the tall, bare tree right in back of the green allows you to more confidently swing away.  Those that miss the carry will struggle to make par while the others will have a great look at birdie.  Love that hole even though I played it like crap. 

I feel very fortunate to only be 3 hours from Green Lake because a return trip up to Lawsonia will happen again soon.  It was great meeting so many of you this past weekend and I’m already itching for my next GCA trip.  Have to quickly comment on Rick Shefchik’s post about the bratwurst tray, I read that at work and spit out water on my keyboard, well done sir.

[Patrick Kiser]

Quick note to mention I'll tend to put together slideshows for these kinds of trips.  Anyone interested in a slideshow of my pics should PM me with their email address.

[Adam Clayman]

Did anyone play the Woodlands?

For those who have only played the course since Forse's work, the architecture still stood out before the work, just not as forgiving or fun. I seem to recall the narrowest fairways I had ever seen. But, they weren't that bad since the rough was not the long lush stuff most courses nowadays, sport. Back then, the course had a ruggedness about it that allowed a novice like me to open my eyes to the importance of the architecture.

[George Freeman]

Did anyone play the Woodlands?

For those who have only played the course since Forse's work, the architecture still stood out before the work, just not as forgiving or fun. I seem to recall the narrowest fairways I had ever seen. But, they weren't that bad since the rough was not the long lush stuff most courses nowadays, sport. Back then, the course had a ruggedness about it that allowed a novice like me to open my eyes to the importance of the architecture.

Adam - is the second paragraph talking about the Links or did Forse also do work on the Woodlands?

[Phil McDade]

Adam:

I don't think the Woodlands is a bad course, and for me, if it was anywhere else, I'd probably play it more often.   It's a course with some solid holes -- particularly those built around the old quarry -- but I'm always left with the uneasy feeling playing it that I'd rather be next door.

[PCCraig]

The Woodlands? I played it this past summer while on a guys trip after a couple buddies insisted on "mixing it up" with a round on the Woodlands. After nine holes one of those buddies said to me "why are we playing this course again over the Links?"

It's fine, but when you have a course as fun and unique as the Links course next door, why would you bother playing a Doak ~2?

[Patrick Kiser]

Couple of pics from the Sat. evening presentation and gathering...


Dan in action




George giving the business




Rigging the Sunday matches




Arguing over who's picking up the tab...




Let the show begin...




Original scorecard?




Langford...




Original layout aerial?

[Adam Clayman]

George, Yes, I switched back to the Links course. I'm unaware of any work Forse did on the other 18 holes.

I agree with Phil about the south nine (front of Woodlands). The holes nearest the quarry were always very fun. The start was/is a very good snaking par 5. The quarry hole is a great use of optional lines of play. Then the drop shot par 3 was always a blast, unforgiving on any miss right, but still a blast.                                                       

[George Freeman]

Quick note to mention I'll tend to put together slideshows for these kinds of trips.  Anyone interested in a slideshow of my pics should PM me with their email address.

Patrick - If you're going to do a slideshow of the course, I'm sure everyone would be interested to see it so maybe you could put it on this thread (or its own separate thread)?

[Dan Moore]

My foursomes on group played # 5 as a 440 yard par 4 Sunday.  The original plan shows the hole as a 445 yard par 4 and a longer par 5. Into the stiff wind it still played like a par 5.  I'm curious if anyone else played it from the red tees as a par 4 and what their impressions were. 

[Matthew Sander]

Dan,

We played a sixsome 2man scramble late on Sunday afternoon with the winner of the previous hole choosing the tee. We did play the 5th from the red tee and it was a very strong hole into that increasing wind. My partner and I were left with a punched 5 iron under the wind and left it about 15-20 feet behind the hole which was no bargain.

Personally, I really like the fifth hole as a par 5 because for me it is reachable and requires a well thought out decision, especially with that front right hole location. Where the pin was, if you went for the green in two, you were likely behind the hole with a difficult downhill two putt. Missing right into one of the bunkers or rough well below the level of the green is absolute jail. The wise play might be to play conservatively over that left hand berm to leave a straight forward slightly uphill pitch to the green.

However, for shorter hitters the par 5 is likely always a 3 shot hole where the decision is whether or not to challenge the berm which would leave a shorter approach. For shorter hitters, the hole as a 445 yard par 4 brings about the same decision process that it does for longer hitters as a par 5.  

[Bill Seitz]

Personally, I really like the fifth hole as a par 5 because for me it is reachable and requires a well thought out decision, especially with that front right hole location. Where the pin was, if you went for the green in two, you were likely behind the hole with a difficult downhill two putt. Missing right into one of the bunkers or rough well below the level of the green is absolute jail. The wise play might be to play conservatively over that left hand berm to leave a straight forward slightly uphill pitch to the green.

In my two rounds on my own ball, I made birdie and par, both times leaving the second shot just short, and once chipping close enough for an easy birdie putt.  I did so doing exactly what you suggest, playing left of the flag over the berm about 60 yards short of the green and avoiding the trouble to the right.

However, you mention the bunkers short and right.  On Saturday morning, Steve Salmen left it in the front short right bunker it two.  That bunker was much further from the green than it appeared from 230 yards out and it just looked like a brutal shot to be left with.  He knocked it to about five feet and made the birdie putt.  I thought it was really an incredible up and down for birdie from that location.  Then in the afternoon, Norm Olsen left in the same spot in the same bunker.  In fact, I mentioned to him that I was pretty sure he was in the portion of the bunker that was raked by Steve Salmen in the morning, from which he made birdie.  Darn it if Norm didn't knock it even closer for a birdie of his own.  I guess one man's jail is another man's (or mens') easy up and down!

[PCCraig]

However, for shorter hitters the par 5 is likely always a 3 shot hole where the decision is whether or not to challenge the berm which would leave a shorter approach. For shorter hitters, the hole as a 445 yard par 4 brings about the same decision process that it does for longer hitters as a par 5.  

Matt:

You bring up a really good point. For the same reasons why #1 would probably be a stronger hole as a par 5, #5 is stronger as a par-5 because the berm fronting the green really plays into the strategy of the players 2nd shot. On the first hole as a par-4, the berm never comes into play and the hole is weaker for it IMO. That doesn't mean it's not a fine opening hole for get you warmed up for the round.

Then again, for longer hitters, #5 probably plays much like the long par-4 it was intended to play like in 1930. Most of the longer hitters I've played with on that hole will usually catch the hill and have ~185 yards in, or even if they don't that still only leaves 230-240 in from the top of the hill.

[Matthew Sander]

Bill,

That's so true. Strategy can be thrown out the window when a guy (or two) executes such a difficult shot. However I should have been more clear in my previous post. I really meant the bunker immediately to the right of the green and not the first one which is recessed 15 or 20 yards. That greenside pit was a menace (a good menace) in relation to where the hole was cut. That said, I'm sure several guys proved me wrong and got up and down from there as well...

[Phil McDade]

However, for shorter hitters the par 5 is likely always a 3 shot hole where the decision is whether or not to challenge the berm which would leave a shorter approach. For shorter hitters, the hole as a 445 yard par 4 brings about the same decision process that it does for longer hitters as a par 5.  

Matt:

You bring up a really good point. For the same reasons why #1 would probably be a stronger hole as a par 5, #5 is stronger as a par-5 because the berm fronting the green really plays into the strategy of the players 2nd shot. On the first hole as a par-4, the berm never comes into play and the hole is weaker for it IMO. That doesn't mean it's not a fine opening hole for get you warmed up for the round.

Then again, for longer hitters, #5 probably plays much like the long par-4 it was intended to play like in 1930. Most of the longer hitters I've played with on that hole will usually catch the hill and have ~185 yards in, or even if they don't that still only leaves 230-240 in from the top of the hill.

Pat:

I think you're correct, but I'd argue that's still a pretty good risk/reward shot for a short par 5 -- that tee shot on #5 is so unlike much of what you find at Lawsonia, because it's tight, with OB hard right and junk left, that a drive to catch that speed slot is a very good shot with not a lot of room for error. The first three driving holes at Lawsonia, I think, can often lull the golfer into a sense of complacency, because those fairways at #1, 2, and 3 offer plenty of width. Then #5 comes along with a drive that's both tight and blind as to its outcome -- a hole that really forces the golfer wanting to score a birdie to make a decision about how to best approach the hole.

[George Freeman]

...On the first hole as a par-4, the berm never comes into play and the hole is weaker for it IMO. That doesn't mean it's not a fine opening hole for get you warmed up for the round.

I beg to differ.  Calcutt drove it into the bunker off the tee on Sunday morning!  I did as well on Saturday afternoon but there was a substantial helping wind.

So it does come into play and should be in the back of the mind of longer hitters trying to cut off the dogleg.

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