[Brett_Morrissy]

Ahh Phillippe,

To the contrary, I do want someone to build it, think someone should have a go, and I do think it can be done - but wanted to draw from the knowledge base here their opinions.

I am sure they are busy in China right now building CPC's and Merions and Pine Valleys as we sleep.

Mac,
Thanks for the thoughts on Sebonack.
are the visitors to Mr Crumps site, Mackenzie, Macdonald, Colt, Tillinghast, Thomas, Wilson or Fownes of the same ilk you mention of today's architects?

[JESII]

Brett,

I'm not suggesting that Pine Valley will not be knocked off the top of the list some day...I didn't realize what you were asking. I assumed the entire experience is where you were going.

I assume your answer is simply that the perfect situation hasn;t yet arisen. Identifying just what it is that makes PV so special would the number one impediment and then the number of developers interested in pursuing it would be number two...after that, about four courses a year probably have the opportunity and of those four I'd bet three are high on ranking lists...

[Mac Plumart]

Mac,
Thanks for the thoughts on Sebonack.
are the visitors to Mr Crumps site, Mackenzie, Macdonald, Colt, Tillinghast, Thomas, Wilson or Fownes of the same ilk you mention of today's architects?

At least one of them is!!!     Time will tell on the rest.

[JESII]

That's apples and oranges isn't it?

Would Doak agree that he simply gave advice at Sebonak? How about Nicklaus?

The guys pitching in ideas at Pine Valley were by all accounts friendly advisors. In the context of building a golf course I think it's a very substantial distinction.


But, was the collaboration the key?

[Philippe Binette]

Brett,

it's a matter of vision, partly of money, a lot of persistance, some time and also a bit of dictatorship...

I think architects can collaborate in a direct or indirect way on a project but there's always one guy who has to draw the line, say no sometimes and not listen to everybody, like the first guy who would say it's too penal.

Is there somebody better than the Old Guys, maybe maybe not...

but YOU GOTTA BELIEVE lol

[Tim Bert]

... no one would fully recognize it or acknowledge it for 50 to 100 years.

[Bill Shotzbarger]

I mean, just look at it.... (picture taken Monday November 1, 2010)

[Peter Pallotta]

... no one would fully recognize it or acknowledge it for 50 to 100 years.

That's quite possible, Tim - maybe even likely. On the other hand, equally likely is that it would be deemed as such a full 6 months before it even opened for play!...what with all the special previews and with modern communications (and buzz) being what it is. And ironically it is that very possibility that makes it unlikely that it will ever happen -- except in cases of exceptional talent and great good fortune (great site, great owner).  To me the formula has always been the same -- if you have lots and lots of Time you can make up for a lack of talent or experience; and if you have lots and lots of Talent you can make up for not having 'enough' time.  But a middling amount of Talent and a middling amount of Time will end up producing a middling result.  Not that there's anything wrong with middling results- I mean, if it's the best folks can do I'm sure glad they're doing a golf course and not a parking lot.

P

[J Sadowsky]

... no one would fully recognize it or acknowledge it for 50 to 100 years.

Bingo.  The idea that there will never be a course as good as Pine Valley seems wrong for mathematical reasons (though the Mayans may disagree).  In fact, there may very well be courses existing today that will one day be considered as good as PV.  But PV gets the benefit of tradition and fame, and it will be a long time before an equally meritorious course will be thrust to that high of a mantle.

Even then, there are certainly enough people out there who believe RCD, TOC, CPC, ANGC, and Shinny are already its equal....  all it would take is for preferences to change, or PVGC to have a turf problem, and then the paradigm could change entirely.  Has PV been exclusively at the top list of the big rankings since their inception?  I know PBGC was #1 in the GD ratings for one year, but don't know if that was the only time PV was knocked off its pedestal, so to speak. 

[TEPaul]

I'm not big on ratings and rankings but I don't believe any other golf course has been as consistently and as often (annually) ranked #1 in the nation and perhaps even in the world as Pine Valley has been.

[Jason Topp]

Wolf Run is not a bad modern example of this type of club.

[RSLivingston_III]

I have always been under the impression that Pine Valley was originally a 'target golf' course that mostly required carry shots. And trees were not a part of the mix.
Is this not true?

[Jon Wiggett]

Just to add some controverse to this thread.

I would suggest that Castle Stuart is the 'Pine Valley' of this era in as much as it collaberation between developer and GCA as well as setting the standard in doing a new type of design.

Jon

[TEPaul]

RS:

The thing that few seem to understand or appreciate about Pine Valley is that when Crump found it the trees down there were plentiful (hence the name) but quite small. That is another story altogether but there is little question now that they must have been a very comprehensive "second" growth (perhaps only 10-20 years old) after some massive event there----eg perhaps either an extensive forest fire or perhaps even the fact, as our own Rick Sides recently discovered, that the place was actually owned by a sand mining company and operation (the Lumberton Sand Mining Co).

Crump removed 40,000-50,000 thousand of those small trees simply to open up playing corridors just to look at them and test-shot them but what most don't realize is that a number of those cleared areas he did not use for holes and he did not live to replant them. And also what most do not realize or appreciate is that many of the trees he did not take down have had about ninety years to grow and are now about ten times higher and wider and larger than they were when he found that site and designed a golf course on it.

Matter of fact, one could probably make a good case that if Crump had found that site back then when it had as many trees as it had that are as old and large as they are now he may never have taken on the project there as to just cut trees of the size they are now to look at and test playing corridors may've been prohibitavely expensive.

[RSLivingston_III]

RS:

The thing that few seem to understand or appreciate about Pine Valley is that when Crump found it the trees down there were plentiful (hence the name) but quite small. That is another story altogether but there is little question now that they must have been a very comprehensive "second" growth (perhaps only 10-20 years old) after some massive event there----eg perhaps either an extensive forest fire or perhaps even the fact, as our own Rick Sides recently discovered, that the place was actually owned by a sand mining company and operation (the Lumberton Sand Mining Co).

Crump removed 40,000-50,000 thousand of those small trees simply to open up playing corridors just to look at them and test-shot them but what most don't realize is that a number of those cleared areas he did not use for holes and he did not live to replant them. And also what most do not realize or appreciate is that many of the trees he did not take down have had about ninety years to grow and are now about ten times higher and wider and larger than they were when he found that site and designed a golf course on it.

Matter of fact, one could probably make a good case that if Crump had found that site back then when it had as many trees as it had that are as old and large as they are now he may never have taken on the project there as to just cut trees of the size they are now to look at and test playing corridors may've been prohibitavely expensive.

Thank you Mr. Paul for clarifying the tree issue.
Would you be interested in commenting on the carry shot/target shot part of my question?

[George Pazin]

Sully, I am also not raising this as a means to 'knock' Pine Valley off it's very lofty perch - just why do not more developers try to emulate, do they aim too low? Do they not get it? are they more interested in the money to be made instead of the great golf to be played? Agree also that there can be only one, as there will always only be one St Andrews.

I guess I'm just confused as to what you're asking - though I do think your thread has brought out some interesting thoughts.

There may not have been another PV, but in the last 20 years we've gotten a Sand Hills, a Pac Dunes, a Barnbougle, a Friars Head, a Sebonack, a Ballyneal, a Wolf Point, a Victoria National, a Rock Creek...obviously I could list a bunch more that are very special places.

Maybe the average course isn't as good as it could be, but is the average movie? Book? House?

And to Peter Pallotta, there are at least 3 George Pazins in the world that I know of...

[JC Jones]

Just to add some controverse to this thread.

I would suggest that Castle Stuart is the 'Pine Valley' of this era in as much as it collaberation between developer and GCA as well as setting the standard in doing a new type of design.

Jon

or Kingsley Club.

[RSLivingston_III]

Just to add some controverse to this thread.

I would suggest that Castle Stuart is the 'Pine Valley' of this era in as much as it collaberation between developer and GCA as well as setting the standard in doing a new type of design.

Jon

or Kingsley Club.

I would be hard pressed to call Kingsley, Pine Valley like.
A better example would be Dunes.

[Scott Warren]

I think one thing that stops a lot of developers from building a course as beguiling and with such a massive X Factor as Pine Valley is the desire to build courses of such massive length in the modern era.

IMO, the major hook of Pine Valley - for me at least - is that it completely hits on the head 18 times the quote of Tom Simpson (and I am going by memory so this won't be word perfect) that "golf holes should be either look easier than they are or be easier than they look. They must never be what they appear".

That it does that with holes the length of 2, 8, 10, 12 and 17 (and if you included 6 on that list - which is borderline - that's a third of the golf course that is "short") is sensational.

Bill Shotzbarger:

It's amazing how quickly the trees turned. This is your pic on Nov 1:



Here's the same shot on Oct 11:

[JC Jones]

Just to add some controverse to this thread.

I would suggest that Castle Stuart is the 'Pine Valley' of this era in as much as it collaberation between developer and GCA as well as setting the standard in doing a new type of design.

Jon

or Kingsley Club.

I would be hard pressed to call Kingsley, Pine Valley like.
A better example would be Dunes.

As far as architecture, yes (though I've only played Dunes Club and seen pictures of Pine Valley but I've spoken with people who have played both and said it is reminiscent).

As far as collaborative effort between developers and architect sharing the vision though, it would certainly be on the level of Castle Stuart, Ballyneal, etc.

[Ari Techner]

I personally do not see why everyone talks about Pine Valley being so hard and so penal.  I have never thought it was overly difficult even when I have played it with a Persimmon driver.  For reference I do not even hit the ball that far compared to most these days.  I also find it pretty strategic in many places.  The fairways are extremely wide and easy to hit and there is generally a better place to come into the greens from on one side of the fairway or the other.  I have definitely played harder courses.  I do love the course though and I do not think anyone else will ever build another Pine Valley, it is one of a kind.

[Mike Sweeney]

I posed a question on here several years ago.."If Pine Valley opened today, would it universally be accepted as the greatest course in the world?"  I don't know, I've never been there so I'm not doubting its greatness.

But I do think if it were a "modern" course w/out its pedigree there are several people who would not be in love w/it.  We've been told all along it the greatest course in world so it must be.

Dale,

It took 30 years or so to finally play PV. Being from Philly on the right side of the Delaware River, when I first visited I admit that I had a little bit of the "how good could this place be in SOUTH Jersey" attitude. I thought the first hole was a very good hole but not so great as an opener as the dogleg cut off the view of the entire hole. Well the next 17 were simple very good to great to all world holes IMO.

It is simply an awesome golf course

[Tom_Doak]

I don't agree with most of the reasons stated in this thread, but then again, I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley, and I have worked on a handful of courses which were pretty close.

No modern course can compete with the legend of George Crump and 90 years of history, so it may well be that no modern course can knock Pine Valley from its consensus #1 ranking.  But that's because of the politics of rankings, not because golf architects aren't creative enough, and certainly not because we can't build as good with modern equipment.  On the contrary, in the right hands and allowing enough patience, we can build things today that George Crump could not have.  We just can't get the same 90 years of mature vegetation that Pine Valley now has for opening day of our new designs.

It is also true that very few clients would have the nerve to build something as severe and demanding as Pine Valley, because they are afraid it would make it too difficult to recruit a full membership roster.  Most of today's best developers (including Mike Keiser and Mark Parsinen) just aren't that sort of player, so they would not build such a course.  Mr Crump's one great advantage was that as developer and architect, he did not have to seek approval from anyone.  That would be a rare circumstance in the modern era, but it's not impossible ... It would just take a lot of guts.

[JC Jones]

I don't agree with most of the reasons stated in this thread, but then again, I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley, and I have worked on a handful of courses which were pretty close.

No modern course can compete with the legend of George Crump and 90 years of history, so it may well be that no modern course can knock Pine Valley from its consensus #1 ranking.  But that's because of the politics of rankings, not because golf architects aren't creative enough, and certainly not because we can't build as good with modern equipment.  On the contrary, in the right hands and allowing enough patience, we can build things today that George Crump could not have.  We just can't get the same 90 years of mature vegetation that Pine Valley now has for opening day of our new designs.

It is also true that very few clients would have the nerve to build something as severe and demanding as Pine Valley, because they are afraid it would make it too difficult to recruit a full membership roster.  Most of today's best developers (including Mike Keiser and Mark Parsinen) just aren't that sort of player, so they would not build such a course.  Mr Crump's one great advantage was that as developer and architect, he did not have to seek approval from anyone.  That would be a rare circumstance in the modern era, but it's not impossible ... It would just take a lot of guts.

Tom,

While I agree with most of your second paragraph, your third paragraph is contradictory to your previous comments regarding the role of restraint in greatness. 

Can you help me understand where I have misunderstood or misinterpreted your remarks?

[Mike Sweeney]

I don't agree with most of the reasons stated in this thread, but then again, I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley, and I have worked on a handful of courses which were pretty close.

Tom,

Both are in my Top 5 but to say they are equal is silly. Drive 110 miles north or south of PV and you have something like 30 million people. Drive the same 110 miles from Sand Hills or Bandon or Barnboogle and you have how many people that can visit the course. Sand Hills, Bandon and Barnboogle are modern phenomenons of plane travel.  

The title of this thread is not "There will never be architecture like that at Pine Valley." PV had a completely unique set of circumstances to make it what it is.

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