[Brett_Morrissy]

- there will only ever be one George Crump.
- there are plenty of "George Crumps", but we do not have the quality of collarboration/advice that was afforded him.
- there is no land anywhere like that at PV.
- there is plenty of parcels of land like PV, but no one with the time, passion, money(?) and vision to build it.
- it is not just any old pine forest with sandy undulating ground.
- no one wants to take on the comparison.
- they don't make hoteliers like they used to
- it cannot be built today.
- it cannot be built today becuase our machinery is too good, no one would dream of building a course with horses, ploughs, dynamite, shovels, picks and handsaws.
- it would take too long.
- it would not take long enough 
- there has not been, nor will there ever be a man with such driven passion and singleminded vision that also had the skill to council advice from the best in the field.
- there is no one in the world today capable of building a course with these strategic values, carries and penalties.
- no one would want to play a course like Pine Valley if it were built today becuase of the forced carries and it's extremely penal nature.

...or maybe one day somewhere, someone will build another "Pine Valley"?

BM

[Mike Hendren]

Trees are out of vogue.

[Dan Boerger]

Brett - Your last point is, IMO, the most compelling reason why this course would not be built today.

I can't imagine anyone starting a private club with a course so penal. And certainly no one trying to attract the public would do so.

[Ronald Montesano]

does the world need another Pine Valley?

[Brett_Morrissy]

Michael,

how long will trees be 'out of vogue'?

Dan,
if know would today, build a course so penal, as you imply it would be bad for 'business' - why is PV still regarded as one of the finest in the world? Surely, if there was a similar course on the West coast of US, that they would knock its gates down to get in to play it, pay it or join it?

RTO'HM
OK to share the love isn't it?

[Ronald Montesano]

Brian,

sharing the love is well and good, but if I die w/o having played Pine Valley, that's fine.

knowing that it exists and that many will benefit from its layout is enough for me.

I walked Merion during Walker Cup, never struck a shot, and enjoyed it as much as an actual round.  Taking images helps preserve the memories.

[Dale_McCallon]

I posed a question on here several years ago.."If Pine Valley opened today, would it universally be accepted as the greatest course in the world?"  I don't know, I've never been there so I'm not doubting its greatness.

But I do think if it were a "modern" course w/out its pedigree there are several people who would not be in love w/it.  We've been told all along it the greatest course in world so it must be.

[TEPaul]

George Crump and Pine Valley were not exactly trying to attract the public when Pine Valley was conceived and created. That can be proven by the extent of the membership letter that was initially sent out, as well as what that letter said.

As for the extreme difficulty of the course, that was an idea that apparently was uniquely Crump's and he gave his reasons for it.

As to whether a course of that difficulty would be too much of a challenge for most people that too can be somewhat explained by the fact that many may not realize with Pine Valley-----that its members back then and probably still today are almost to a man members of other golf clubs as well. Very few play Pine Valley as a stead diet or as their only golf course.

But back to the question of the fixation of some or many with its extreme difficutly-----I believe that is something akin to the fixation of so many with trying to see how far up the scale they can send the weight that rings the bell at the proverbial State Fair!

As for whether the basic model of Pine Valley----eg extreme difficutly could be successful today somewhere else or could catch the fame and respect that Pine Valley did right out of the box is probably a question without a single or obvious answer. It seems it has been tried but not with the success of Pine Valley. The part or point that many may not fully appreciate is that Pine Valley was not intended to be for normal golfers----and Crump did not hesitate to make that point and in fact virtually glory in it. He said and not just once that the course was intended to be ONLY for champions.

I have no doubt whatsoever, that THAT was very much part of its allure, albeit it an always somewhat mysterious allure, and its fame!

[michael damico]

- there has not been, nor will there ever be a man with such driven passion and singleminded vision that also had the skill to council advice from the best in the field.


I never hear of architects today consulting other architects for advice outside of their own firm. I may be completely wrong, but that is something I would like to know. I don't believe it is the competitive nature of the profession (some architects not wanting to share their 'secrets') as much as it may be egos getting in the way. Sure there have been collaborations throughout the history of gca, but has there been as much council as there was at PV. Is that the distinguishing factor here? The different insight from so many accredited architects that led to this melting pot of principles in gc design?


Brian, you also bring up a great point. So much of the subtle undulations are carelessly lost during construction

[PCCraig]

Trees are out of vogue.

When Pine Valley was built, there were few trees in play.

[TEPaul]

"Sure there have been collaborations throughout the history of gca, but has there been as much council as there was at PV. Is that the distinguishing factor here? The different insight from so many accredited architects that led to this melting pot of principles in gc design?"


I don't think there was ever anything close to the spirit of collaboration that existed at Pine Valley but there was a good reason for that compared to today's world of professional architecture. The reason was pretty much in the personality and in the man, George Crump; he was not a professional architect and he most certainly never intended to be one, and he definitely had numerous friends.

As far as trees in play or the tree situation Crump envisioned that issue is pretty complicated and apparently one some on here either do not understand or do not appreciate.

The tree issue both back in the beginning and throughout the evolution of the course is a complex one that has numerous reasons, some of them being remarkably practical and interesting.

[Matt_Ward]

What's so ironic is that this site celebrates strategic designs that are anything but penal but in the same breath hails PV as the top course in the world.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Brian
I've seen Joe Hancock move a teaspoonful of dirt on a pass with a bulldozer
Our main shaper learned how to get an oil can out of a ditch without a dent with a dozer
It isn't the tools

Pine Valley had a singleminded mandate - that helped tremendously
As good and fun as Old Macdonald looks - it had 2 mandates
Wolf Point had one mandate - and the land was no where as good as PV's

Brett
I think it is very possible to build a better course than Pine Valley - but better for who?
Cheers

[JC Jones]

Brian
I've seen Joe Hancock move a teaspoonful of dirt on a pass with a bulldozer

Yes, but what he was trying to do was to move several yards of dirt, he just missed.   But I like the way you spin things for old Joe.

[Mac Plumart]

Brett...

Your list sounds a lot like Sebonack!

[Brett_Morrissy]

Tom Paul Quote: As to whether a course of that difficulty would be too much of a challenge for most people that too can be somewhat explained by the fact that many may not realize with Pine Valley-----that its members back then and probably still today are almost to a man members of other golf clubs as well. Very few play Pine Valley as a stead diet or as their only golf course.

Tom, I am really surprised by this, I would have thought with a course like that at your disposal, that it would be your 'home' course. So that is telling information.

A wealthy businessman here in Australia got his good mate G Norman-Bob Harrison to build him a course at his property, Ellerston, and I believe the brief was for 200 yard carries on all tees and for 4 markers or lower... this course is highly regarded in Australia, but cannot be viewed but a small handful of the population - much less than see PV I imagine.

Mike: better for who.
I suppose that wasn't really my point of indentifying a particular type of golfer/member - perhaps just a golf course for the world of GCA - I just cannot believe that no one has briefed an architect in the last 50 years to "Build me a Pine Valley - hang the expense".

if I bring CPC into the equation, I cannot argue that, as the land to me there seems so completely special and unique.


Michael's point of collarboration is perhaps better served on another thread, but surely sharing information as you say is not the roadblock.

Mac:
Why does the list sound like Sebonack, apart from the Nicklaus Doak - is collaboration the correct term?

[Joel Zuckerman]

There will never be another Pine Valley because it is simply the pinnacle of the game, and there can only be one pinnacle.

  It’s more than the course, an otherworldly combination of gorgeous and dangerous, where each hole burns a permanent imprint into the consciousness of all but the most scatterbrained golfer.  The psychological demands of the layout are unending, as virtually every drive and approach shot require a forced carry, however modest, over sand, scrub and ominous vegetation.  Perhaps because the golf itself is so relentless in intensity, the rest of the experience is so wonderfully agreeable.  The caddies are absolute marvels, and are able to unearth balls in the undergrowth and read double breaking putts with equal aplomb.  The clubhouse is simple and unaffected, but drips with golf history.  The showerheads are the size of Frisbees, the food is superb, the drinks are stiff, the beer ice cold, and the membership roster littered with names like “Palmer”, “Player”, “Fazio” and “Thomson”.  What more can one really ask for? 

[Brett_Morrissy]

Pine Valley II ?

Pine Valley for the masses?

I just dont get why so many average courses are churned out year after year, is it all just to sell real estate...

Perhaps Mr Keiser still has a few Aces up his sleeve.

[Adam_Messix]

I'm going to take a different tact at this....

There is a golf course that opened in the last few years and was put together by a couple of major golf enthusiasts.  They wanted a simple, yet very classical golf course in terms of looks and play, but yet very modern in terms of length.  Personally, I think the golf course in question is simply fabulous and if it had some of the collaboration that Pine Valley had would have been something to rival it, but it's a different day and age and that simply is not possible given how professional the business has become.  The more I think about it, I have little doubt that the course would be panned by the golfclubatlas crowd as being too hard.  Then I think about Pine Valley and how it is almost universally loved on this site (of course, there's always going to be someone who is a contrarian and that's their right).  I think reputation as "being the best" has something to do with it, as well as the caliber of it's membership.  Personally, similar to the course that I was thinking about, Pine Valley is very subtly strategic for the strong player who is playing well.  There are so many little angles and strategies that can make or break the strong player's round.  I hope Sully and Jamie Slonis will chime in on this, but I think there is A LOT of strategy at Pine Valley, it's just difficult to get to it because it's really difficult for a player beyond a 5-7 handicap.  

Could it happen, my guess is yes, but it would take just the right person with the will, the capital, the drive, and the patience to pull it off. 

[JESII]

Brett,

I would expect the concept of Pine Valley could be easily replicated so long as a single person had the vision, patience and desire to see it through. The fact that Pine Valley (among several others) is here greatly reduces the possibility of someone having the vision or desire in my opinion.


So my answer is simple..."there will never be another Pine Valley because"...Pine Valley already exists and another one is not necessary.

[Peter Pallotta]

There will never be another Pine Valley for the same reason there'll never be another Brett Morrissy or Joel Zuckerman or Peter Pallotta (no matter how many of our decendents -- and god willing there will be a lot of them -- decide to name themselves in our honour).  And that's just fine, and the way things should be.  Everyone should just leave Pine Valley in peace -- it's enough for me to know that it exists out there in New Jersey, a one of a kind  (along with everything else...even snowflakes, I'm told).

Peter

[Joel Zuckerman]

There is a golf course that opened in the last few years and was put together by a couple of major golf enthusiasts.  They wanted a simple, yet very classical golf course in terms of looks and play, but yet very modern in terms of length

Adam---Care to share the name, or is discretion the better part of valor?

[Brett_Morrissy]

I am finding this discussion very interesting.

Although, Peter I take your point about there will be another Brett Morrissy, I am certainly not rated best human being ever created, nor are we trying to build new humans every day like we do golf courses (although....)

And Joel, I get all the extra things about PV that make it great apart from the golf course - but most of those things can be replicated by the right person.

Sully, I am also not raising this as a means to 'knock' Pine Valley off it's very lofty perch - just why do not more developers try to emulate, do they aim too low? Do they not get it? are they more interested in the money to be made instead of the great golf to be played? Agree also that there can be only one, as there will always only be one St Andrews.

I have not been to PV, except in pictures, but the land does not seem as unique as the coastal strips, so that is where I am coming from, similar land must almost be plentiful, architects - why have you not suggested to a Developer - "I think I can build a top 50 golf course here - if you will just....."

[Mac Plumart]

Mac:
Why does the list sound like Sebonack, apart from the Nicklaus Doak - is collaboration the correct term?

To answer your question, I'll take'em one by one.


- there will only ever be one George Crump.

Of course. Peter P touched on that.


- there are plenty of "George Crumps", but we do not have the quality of collarboration/advice that was afforded him.

Doak, Nicklaus, Urbina might argue.  Not to mention Hissey, Rule, Boddington (I think I got these names/spelling correct).


- there is no land anywhere like that at PV.

The land at Sebonack is pretty freakin' unreal!  http://www.sebonack.com/golfcourse.asp


- there is plenty of parcels of land like PV, but no one with the time, passion, money(?) and vision to build it.

Michael Pascucci is off the charts impressive and I believe checks off all those boxes.
 

- it is not just any old pine forest with sandy undulating ground.

Again, the land at Sebonack is off the charts.  Not just like Pine Valley of course, but really, really good golf land.


- no one wants to take on the comparison.

Agreed.


- they don't make hoteliers like they used to

Car leasing guys, maybe...hoteliers, you are correct.


- it cannot be built today.

That is what they said about building a course where Sebonack, NGLA, and Shinnecock are.


- it cannot be built today becuase our machinery is too good, no one would dream of building a course with horses, ploughs, dynamite, shovels, picks and handsaws.

 

- it would take too long.

Brad Klein details how long this bad boy (Sebonack) took.  OH MY GOD!!!  I couldn't have done it, but Michael Pascucci did it!
http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/GOOD-READ-Building-Sebonack/1173/Default.aspx

- it would not take long enough

 
 
- there has not been, nor will there ever be a man with such driven passion and singleminded vision that also had the skill to council advice from the best in the field.

Hmmm...again, one might be able to argue Michael Pascucci is that man.


- there is no one in the world today capable of building a course with these strategic values, carries and penalties.

I've never played Pine Valley, so I can't really make a direct comparison, but Sebonack certainly has those attributes in spades!!

- no one would want to play a course like Pine Valley if it were built today becuase of the forced carries and it's extremely penal nature.

Some would and do.

Brett, I am certainly not saying you are wrong.  But I really think that there have been some DARN good courses being built lately.  We can't ignore them.

[Philippe Binette]

Brett: with that attitude in mind, you're right, nobody would do it..

here's my reply:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8grPU1aw9c&  start at 4:40 and listen to the story about the 4-minute mile

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