[JC Jones]

I don't agree with most of the reasons stated in this thread, but then again, I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley, and I have worked on a handful of courses which were pretty close.

Tom,

Both are in my Top 5 but to say they are equal is silly. Drive 110 miles north or south of PV and you have something like 30 million people. Drive the same 110 miles from Sand Hills or Bandon or Barnboogle and you have how many people that can visit the course. Sand Hills, Bandon and Barnboogle are modern phenomenons of plane travel.  

The title of this thread is not "There will never be architecture like that at Pine Valley." PV had a completely unique set of circumstances to make it what it is.

What point are you making, exactly?  That Pine Valley is the greatest there is because it is located in a major metropolitan area?

[Brett_Morrissy]

Thanks  TPaul,
In looking at a couple of old photos, I wondered where the thick forest was, thanks for explaining that it wasn't actually there, and that it was new growth forest.

Thanks also Tom D
An excellent summary, and what is your take then on the advice saught by Mr Crump, would you or many of today's members of this 'new' golden era, seek council or advice from others you respect in the field? It seems as though two heads are better than one, I have read that you wanted to maintain a final say at Old Mac, was that collaborative process a similar situation from a creative point of view. Do you feel the industry is open to this kind of process?

I have noticed a significant movement lead by the best in the world's best restuarant scene, where many are all openly encouraging each other to share recipes and techniques, to do creative workshops together and discuss there creative process - is this something that you can see happening in the GCA world?

To me this seeking of advice from ones peers seems to distinguish some of the best of the best from the Golden Age.

[Tom_Doak]

JC,

Yes, that's an interesting point.  Pine Valley is generally not a restrained design -- although it is quite a bit wider and the greens mostly larger than how most people describe it.

But to be honest, while the Philadelphia contingent have always believed it to be the greatest, it was not so well received by other parties in the teens and twenties.  The quotes about it in Wethered & Simpson's book were that it was over the top, and Bernard Darwin said much the same.   Up until the 1970's its reputation was more for difficulty than for greatness.  I think that the passage of time and the changes in equipment served the purpose of restraint in making the golf course more playable and less severe, and that is when it took over as the world's greatest course.  And that is also why it is so hard to compete with ... it is almost impossible to go "all out" on design as Crump did without going over the top ... not even Crump himself really managed that.

And P.S. to Mike Sweeney ... Pine Valley is built on one hell of a piece of property, which is another reason it is so hard to emulate.  It may not be as unique as Sand Hills or Bandon in that respect, but it just might be if you really studied what was there.  It is not just all "built" as some seem to believe.  

[Tom_Doak]

Brett,

Collaboration as you describe it has been rare in the last ten years because we were all so busy ... although I have done a few well regarded collaborations along the way, not just at Sebonack but also Barnbougle and St Andrews Beach.

In fact everything we work on anymore is collaborative, and there are 4-6 guys on the ground on each project who are super talents.  Pine Valley is famous for that only in hindsight ... George Thomas and Tillinghast had only minor profiles in Crump's day, it was what they did afterward that made them famous and gave PV that much more cachet.  Perhaps someday people will think the same about some of my crews, or some of Bill Coore's or Gil Hanse's.

[Mike Sweeney]

What point are you making, exactly?  That Pine Valley is the greatest there is because it is located in a major metropolitan area?

Who said the greatest? The title of the thread is:

Re: There will never be another Pine Valley becuase...

[JC Jones]

JC,

Yes, that's an interesting point.  Pine Valley is generally not a restrained design -- although it is quite a bit wider and the greens mostly larger than how most people describe it.

But to be honest, while the Philadelphia contingent have always believed it to be the greatest, it was not so well received by other parties in the teens and twenties.  The quotes about it in Wethered & Simpson's book were that it was over the top, and Bernard Darwin said much the same.   Up until the 1970's its reputation was more for difficulty than for greatness.  I think that the passage of time and the changes in equipment served the purpose of restraint in making the golf course more playable and less severe, and that is when it took over as the world's greatest course.  And that is also why it is so hard to compete with ... it is almost impossible to go "all out" on design as Crump did without going over the top ... not even Crump himself really managed that.

And P.S. to Mike Sweeney ... Pine Valley is built on one hell of a piece of property, which is another reason it is so hard to emulate.  It may not be as unique as Sand Hills or Bandon in that respect, but it just might be if you really studied what was there.  It is not just all "built" as some seem to believe.  

Tom,

I'm quite impressed that you were able to interpret Mike Sweeney's gibberish.  Ironically, even though he was born and raised there, Sweeney has a history of dismissing the topography in the Philadelphia area.  Which apparently is a negative for Merion but a positive for Pine Valley.

I hear often that Pine Valley is wider than people describe it.  The recent pictures, however, would seem to indicate otherwise.

[JC Jones]

What point are you making, exactly?  That Pine Valley is the greatest there is because it is located in a major metropolitan area?

Who said the greatest? The title of the thread is:

Re: There will never be another Pine Valley becuase...

Oh how I wish we had the yawning emoticon. 

[Ryan Farrow]

You mean land like this?









unfortunately for you  guys its going to be in China.... but I'll send you some pictures! And its 36 holes, so our goal is for a more of a Pine Valley course in the densely treed site, forced carries over sandy scrub, grass faced bunkers, very tough..... The other course will be more dunes-ey, a little more along the lines of Friars head, but wilder.....no flat potato field to deal with, but we do have a few holes that go through a watermelon field.

Should  start clearing very very shortly... the owner is gearing up and the government is behind us.....

[Tom_Doak]

Ryan,

That looks like a great site (though I can't make out the Philadelphia skyline).  But, be careful of comparing yourself to Pine Valley at the start of any project.  Many have tried, and none yet have succeeded.  But best of luck.

[Mike Sweeney]

What point are you making, exactly?  That Pine Valley is the greatest there is because it is located in a major metropolitan area?

Who said the greatest? The title of the thread is:

Re: There will never be another Pine Valley becuase...

Oh how I wish we had the yawning emoticon. 

They do over on BombSquadGolf. Maybe it is time to give it a try.

I love a good tweak or two but as Kramer said to Jerry, "That's been played Jerry."

[Joel Zuckerman]

Has PV been exclusively at the top list of the big rankings since their inception?  I know PBGC was #1 in the GD ratings for one year, but don't know if that was the only time PV was knocked off its pedestal, so to speak. 

Tom Paul could probably shed light on this subject, as familiar as he is with the club abd also being from the area.  A longtime PV member told me when hosting me at my initial visit there a decade back that Pine Valley only morphed into PINE VALLEY with the advent of the various Top 100 lists.  Prior to it being "discovered" (early 80s, maybe?) It was considered a great GC, very notable in many ways, but only in the last 20--30 years has it been considered THE creme de la creme.

[Mac Plumart]

1. St.Andrews, Scotland
2. Cypress Point, California
3. Pine Valley, N.J.
4. Pebble Beach, California
5. Sandwich, England

From the 1939 list Tom Macwood posted in the "In my opinion" section of this site.

[JC Jones]

Has PV been exclusively at the top list of the big rankings since their inception?  I know PBGC was #1 in the GD ratings for one year, but don't know if that was the only time PV was knocked off its pedestal, so to speak. 

Tom Paul could probably shed light on this subject, as familiar as he is with the club abd also being from the area.  A longtime PV member told me when hosting me at my initial visit there a decade back that Pine Valley only morphed into PINE VALLEY with the advent of the various Top 100 lists.  Prior to it being "discovered" (early 80s, maybe?) It was considered a great GC, very notable in many ways, but only in the last 20--30 years has it been considered THE creme de la creme.

Joel,

It is interesting that you point this out because Pine Valley is one of many courses that seemed to be "sleeping giants" in the early 80s.  I wonder if the economic climate during that time had anything to do with so many of the great clubs, struggling. 

[Mac Plumart]

For what it is worth, here is Pine Valley and it ranking in the Golf Mag World Rankings from 1983-2005...

Pine Valley…4,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1

[Chris Johnston]

Pine Valley is beyond golf.  It is an institution and an experience unto itself.

[Peter Pallotta]

...In fact everything we work on anymore is collaborative, and there are 4-6 guys on the ground on each project who are super talents.  Pine Valley is famous for that only in hindsight ... George Thomas and Tillinghast had only minor profiles in Crump's day, it was what they did afterward that made them famous and gave PV that much more cachet.  Perhaps someday people will think the same about some of my crews, or some of Bill Coore's or Gil Hanse's.

Tom - That's insightful and clearly stated. A healthy perspective, and a helpful reminder.

Peter 

[Scott Warren]

JC Jones:

I hear often that Pine Valley is wider than people describe it.  The recent pictures, however, would seem to indicate otherwise.

I doubt you and I have played many of the same courses, so an it plays wider than..." is difficult, but the fairways are some of the widest I have seen.

That's perhaps the thing about Pine Valley, the scale of the place is enormous, so in a picture, in comparison to other features, the fairways may not look so wide and the greens might not look all that big, but the fairways are super wide and the greens are very big. The carries are not all that far either.

There is also the fact that it's a low-wind site, so the effective width is greater again than the same width corridors in a windy area.

There is also the perspective from which people take pictures. If you stand on the edge of a teebox/fairway and shoot to the green, the corridor will appear narrower than it really is. Pictures tell lies.

[JC Jones]

JC Jones:

I hear often that Pine Valley is wider than people describe it.  The recent pictures, however, would seem to indicate otherwise.

I doubt you and I have played many of the same courses, so an it plays wider than..." is difficult, but the fairways are some of the widest I have seen.

That's perhaps the thing about Pine Valley, the scale of the place is enormous, so in a picture, in comparison to other features, the fairways may not look so wide and the greens might not look all that big, but the fairways are super wide and the greens are very big. The carries are not all that far either.

There is also the fact that it's a low-wind site, so the effective width is greater again than the same width corridors in a windy area.

There is also the perspective from which people take pictures. If you stand on the edge of a teebox/fairway and shoot to the green, the corridor will appear narrower than it really is. Pictures tell lies.

Thanks for the explanation.  I see what you are saying.

[Tyler Kearns]

JC,

The fairways at Pine Valley mostly range between 45-65 yards in width, with two notable exceptions being #2 & #7 (1st landing area). As a comparison, think of #4 at Kingsley, it's about 65 yards before it narrows down to 45 at the fairway bunkers just beyond the large punchbowl in the right side of the fairway.

TK

[Kevin Pallier]

...or maybe one day somewhere, someone will build another "Pine Valley"?

Brett

I dunno - Sand Hills for mine is up there...

[Brett_Morrissy]

KP,
I agree with you on Sand Hills, very, very special, although I do not put it in the same category as PV, with or becuase of its forced carries and penal nature.

What I am attempting to establish is why it is - that since Sand Hills opened in 1996, there have been so many average courses built.
I was reading the other day a list of all the courses that have opened in the States, and also think of the courses built in Aust since 96, what are the barriers to a developer giving a brief to an architect to build a course 'like' Pine Valley, a treed forest with sandy soil and great undulations. Also taking into account TD's comment regarding that of course "not all courses are built as some seem to think", but special probably does require great land as well.

SH and Bandon and Barnbougle are really special pieces of land and very unique, which is why this in not titled "...never another CPC.."  as I see CPC/NGLA in this category - granted I haven't been to PV, but bare bones, it must be easier to find parcels of land like that than the ones just metnioned - and I suppose I am looking for a heavily treed site in this discussion - i.e. Bandon Trails, Old Sandwich, Friar's Head, Hidden Creek(?), Boston GC to name a few, how do you extract the best possible golf course, and did Mr Crump have a distinct advantage, and indeed all the Golden Age guys seemed to have had a community of architects freely sharing information, - was this one of his advantages?
I am sure they were as well regarded, their articles and books seem to read that way.

TD explained that all the GCA's have been busy enough for the most recent period, but perhaps as/if we are entering a new period of smaller budgets, smaller parcels of land (?), and fewer projects (apart from Asia) that a more collaborative approach will exist BETWEEN firms AS WELL as amoungst individual teams within a firm which is clearly recognised.

Or has also been noted, general public/weekly golfers/private members/resort players and even players above 4 hcp, do not want the strength of challenge everytime they play of forced carries, and maximum commitment to each shot to ensure your ball is playable on the next??

Discussion of FW widths and green sizes are skirting the issue, well in IMO it is, becuase this is not a particularly unique trait to PV, is it

Nor is discussion of rankings and ratings as to when and where PV was number one, today it is what it is, and I am just using it as a benchmark - sublime or otherwise, as the subject matter is trying to determine why it is so difficult for a project to produce a really special golf course like Pine Valley(and golf experience) - another thread is currently wading thru the evolution of design and where are the next new ideas coming from - is this perhaps it? - less projects, much more time on each project, with a bigger budget and focused individuals, developers, architects, construction teams and golfers - open book designing?

Thanks to everyone who has posted on this thread - excellent comments.

[Scott Warren]

Brett M:

SH and Bandon and Barnbougle are really special pieces of land and very unique, which is why this in not titled "...never another CPC.."  as I see CPC/NGLA in this category - granted I haven't been to PV, but bare bones, it must be easier to find parcels of land like that than the ones just metnioned - and I suppose I am looking for a heavily treed site in this discussion - i.e. Bandon Trails, Old Sandwich, Friar's Head, Hidden Creek(?), Boston GC to name a few... Or has also been noted, general public/weekly golfers/private members/resort players and even players above 4 hcp, do not want the strength of challenge everytime they play of forced carries, and maximum commitment to each shot to ensure your ball is playable on the next??

Discussion of FW widths and green sizes are skirting the issue, well in IMO it is, becuase this is not a particularly unique trait to PV, is it?

The things that most people seem to misunderstand or misrepresent - in my experience - are:

* How penal the course is (false).
* How tough the carries are (false).
* How little strategy is present (false).
* HOW SPECIAL THE LAND IS (under-estimation).

For mine, the most uncelebrated factors of Pine Valley are the greens and the land - ie. the two things that make golf courses so special at the elite end in general.

The sharpness/steepness of such shots as the approach to 2, tee shot on 3, tee shot on 4, approach to 4, short par four 8th, yada, yada, yada... so many good to great inland courses I have played and in no example did the land give as much as Pine Valley's did.

There is so much, in my view, that makes Pine Valley the greatest course I have ever played.

* The greens demand such a pinpoint approach from the right angle.
* The land is so dramatic.
* The fairways are so wide.
* The greens are so massive.
[the last two examples allow a golfer finding he wrong part of the fairway/green to feel they are still in the dogfight when in fact their card is marked BOGEY].
* The carries and other demands appear more than they are.
* A third of the course is "short".

Add 18 amazing holes to that X Factor and you have a course I believe no one will ever match.

A friend from around London shared this summary of Pine Valley as relayed by a friend: "Imagine your favourite hole in Surrey. Now dream it is twice as good. Now imagine a course with 18 holes that good. That is Pine Valley. No joke."

No surprise a course THAT good is so revered.

[TEPaul]

“Thank you Mr. Paul for clarifying the tree issue.
Would you be interested in commenting on the carry shot/target shot part of my question?”



RS:

Sure, I’d be happy to. Your question was:

“I have always been under the impression that Pine Valley was originally a 'target golf' course that mostly required carry shots."



First of all, not a single hole of Pine Valley has traditional or perhaps normal rough grass between its tees and its fairways as so many golf courses do. PV has always been that way. Matter of fact, there is no traditional rough grass on Pine Valley other than some narrow bands on the sides of the fairways that are not original and are only there to be used to turn mowers on.

On all the holes other than three that have water between tee and fairway they have always had what is sometimes called today waste area----eg sandy areas with some rough natural vegetation. Those areas between tee and fairway extent anywhere from about 140 yards to about 240+ from back tee markers.

I can’t prove it but I would assume that idea was Crump’s as the only other drawings of holes for the course that I’m aware of (Harry Colt’s) do not show such a thing in the drawings or in the instructional text on the drawings. But the red lines (Crump’s) on the original topo contour map used during the construction stage do show those waste areas and their sort of island fairways.

Some of Crump’s friends did mention that he was very high on the use of the driver including his own which was over-sized and named Bolivar.


By the way, ten of the holes of PV have open fronts into the green while the rest are forced aerial carries over one type or another of hazard feature.

[Brett_Morrissy]

guys - are the tees 'perfectly flat' at PV?

or are the tees used as part of the strategy also, small slopes and gradients, alignments, etc

[TEPaul]

Brett:

I've been playing down there for about thirty years and over probably hundreds of rounds and I cannot honestly tell you that I remember any tee or any area of one that is not pretty flat and certainly if some aren't whether they're that way to create some kind of strategy. 

However, if one or some do or did it wouldn't bother me at all. I kinda like tees that are somewhat convex and if they are that way I sometimes tend to use that slope to hit a particular kind of shot and shot shape.

I also kind of like tees that are not aligned straight down the middle of holes whether that was done purposefully or not. I feel if a golfer cannot even figure out how to align himself at an area he wants to hit a golf ball too without being aligned by the shape of a tee or tee markers he deserves to be faked out and deceived! I basically hate golf architecture that goes to excessive lengths to hold the hand of golfers instead of allowing them or even forcing them to pretty much think for themselves and figure out what's going on for themselves! 

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