What makes for a great green site?

[Ed Oden]

I believe that a number of architects have stated that one of the first things they sometimes do in the routing process is to identify any good natural green sites.  What exactly are you looking for?

[TEPaul]

Great natural green sites are sort of like that Supreme Court Justice's definition of pornography----eg "You know it when you see it."

Of course you probably have to be thinking about golf and golf architecture when you see them! 

[Anthony Gray]

  My favorite was 14 at Bandon Dunes UNTIL they took out the gourse.The amphitheatre effect wasawesome.Beauty of surroundings...8 at PB.Countours that feed the ball to the green..punchbowls.Greens beside or behind water.

   Anthony

[Adam Clayman]

Just had to share this interesting picture taken at least a week before Father's day. 2010

I'd call it a great green site.

[Tom_Doak]

The ideal green site has

A). Fairly gentle grades
B). A variety of elevations and potential recovery shots to different sides, and
C). A good visual background.

[Pete_Pittock]

The appearance and ability to be defendable, yet is still accessible.

[Ron Farris]

I always like to equate golf features to women.  Like the Supreme Court Justices, you know it when you see it.
It should be beautiful enough to catch your attention, have a certain element of difficulty in getting close to the hole, have contours that reward a good shot, and reject shots that simply do not make the mustard.  They present  a fair chance for recovery or a second chance at sucess so as not to totally humiliate you and make you never want to return.  Beautiful women seldom come without a certain level of high maintenance, but that is where the difference may lie with a golf course and a body.  I like to be tested by green sites but certainly not to the point where I have absolutely no chance. I am setting next to three very attractive greensites, but I have no chance of getting par, let alone bogey.

[Anthony Gray]

I always like to equate golf features to women.  Like the Supreme Court Justices, you know it when you see it.
It should be beautiful enough to catch your attention, have a certain element of difficulty in getting close to the hole, have contours that reward a good shot, and reject shots that simply do not make the mustard.  They present  a fair chance for recovery or a second chance at sucess so as not to totally humiliate you and make you never want to return.  Beautiful women seldom come without a certain level of high maintenance, but that is where the difference may lie with a golf course and a body.  I like to be tested by green sites but certainly not to the point where I have absolutely no chance. I am setting next to three very attractive greensites, but I have no chance of getting par, let alone bogey.

   Ron,

  The post with the most wisdom I have ever seen.It prints a mental picture that is perfectly clear.

  Adam,

  One of the best agreed.What if there was not a bunker to the right of the green?Better/Worse.   



   Anthony

[Carl Rogers]

Group,
Most of Mike Strantz's green sites at Royal New Kent would NOT fit a general consensus of defintions so far.  Maybe that is partly why the course is quasi-controversial.

[Jeff_Brauer]

To be honest, a good to very good green site is one where the slope faces the golfer, perhaps with a little valley many yards out in front.  It hardly ever gets old hitting over a small valley to a green on the other side, and if the green is placed mid slope, it gets the things TD mentions -

*a nice backdrop
*a high and low side (if the general slope is also 45 degrees, uphill AND sidehill)

Greens do work better on gentle slopes, as they require less grading to catch up to slope after leveling to 2-3%.

If you add in:

*Trees (only on the west side where they don't block morning sun)
*Other natural features, like
   ^unique contours that can be taken advantage of, rather than a constant slope
   ^Rock Outcropping, etc.
*Vistas (like shown above at Pebble)
*A convenient spot for the next tee very close by!

Those are just a bonus, and may take it from a good green site to a great one.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Great green sites make you excited to play to the green even if the price of failure is high. I'm thinking of the 11th on TOC, Postage Stamp at R Troon, 2nd shot to Hilbre at Royal Liverpool. Each is a visual challenge as well as a technical challenge. It's terrific if there is some wonderful backdrop, but that is a bonus, maybe even a great bonus. What about the 17th green at Seaton Carew? Great green site, but no view, nothing uplifting in the way of surroundings, but an undeniably wonderfully sited green.

[Adam Clayman]

Anthony , The bunker pictured is an important one. What's interesting about this picture is the hose. I say it's a needed bunker because the way to get on this green, for mere mortals, is to play safely towards this bunker, utilizing the slope to run on to the green. With death lurking short and right, and with the cant of the fairway, from farther back, pulling it left into this bunker is highly likely. So counter intuitive, because if you are back too far and you have that up hill lie, you have to virtually aim for the trouble right, because you are going to pull the approach towards this bunker.

[Mark Pearce]

Mark,

Whenever I see discussion of great green sites I think of 17 at Seaton Carew, a hole where a wide fairway is deceptive because you need to be as far left as possible to get an angle to a green shaped like a bicycle saddle, two levels, great bunkering and sloping off on the left. As you say, no views, though!

[Jeff_Brauer]

I would love to see pix of the great green sites cited as examples here.  Hard to quantify an opinon on this thread without them!

[Jon Wiggett]

I think a great green site is what you make of it. Simple as that. I say this because no matter how you define what makes a good site there are always exceptions to the rule.

Jon

[Bill_McBride]

I would love to see pix of the great green sites cited as examples here.  Hard to quantify an opinon on this thread without them!

Here are some pics from Ran's profile of Hoylake, this is the 12th hole "Hilbre:"

Long par 4 with bunkers 40 yards short.  The green is tucked into that hill left and running shots can use that slope to circumvent the bunkers short of the green.



The green sits up on that hill, with a steep fall off to the right for challenging recoveries and great drainage.



Nice call Mark Rowlinson, that's a spectacular green site!

[Patrick_Mucci]

I believe that a number of architects have stated that one of the first things they sometimes do in the routing process is to identify any good natural green sites.  What exactly are you looking for?

Ed, I'd say, .... almost anything.

One look at GCGC's greensites would sort of confirm that.

The greens transition seemlessly out of the fairways.

Another great example is from a club I'm very familiarl with.
They took a green out of play for reconstruction and mowed a temporary in the fairway.
At first, it was difficult to putt, but, as the grass got mowed tighter and tighter, the area came alive.
It turned out to be a wonderful putting surface with undulations and slopes.
And, it was just sitting there for decades as part of the fairway short of the green.

I suspect that there are thousands upon thousands of similar situtations , areas where greens are just waiting to be discovered in rather blase appearing sites

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