[Carl Rogers]

Will the cost of the game go down for foreigners on the more well known courses?

Are new courses getting post poned?

[RJ_Daley]

this isn't meant to discount your question Carl, but we have already had a few versions of these economic times observations and how they affect GCA and the golf biz, etc.

I'd ask if we are too golf centric to the point of worrying about things that aren't the actual priority at this point?

It reminds me of the old joke that a biased and imbalanced news org's focus demonstrates with a headline of:

747 crashes  in heart of city - women and children most affected.

It is a matter of;  bad economy- stuff happens.  But, some things are favorable for some in a bad economy, and yet many things are not so good for others.  Like Baron deRothchild said, the best time to make money is when blood is running in the street, or something close to that paraphrase.  I suspect that even in this bad economy, certain smart people will position themselves for taking an advantage of the dire straits of the industry.  It will all wash out in the end and golf will survive in Ireland and here, IMHO. 

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I hope so. Nonresident guests pay a premium.

[Mark Chaplin]

For the 1000s of people employed at golf clubs the question is as real as for those who work at a bank. One man's leisure is anothers employment, golf club staff tend to be local, often in rural locations and fairly poorly paid.

Mr Daley I hope you are safe in these difficult times but a greenkeeper and cook at an Irish club with a couple of kids will certainly see this point as a priority.

[Rory Connaughton]

I think the majority of Irish clubs, have been feeling the pain for some time now.  Many courses have reduced their guest rates and have been forced to lay off staff and take other measures to ensure that they remain viable. My understanding is that the past few tourist seasons have been pretty bad which places more pressure on the membership to fund operations.  Given the state of the economy this is becoming more and more difficult.

[Adam Lawrence]

Too much debt fuelling a housing bubble, undercapitalised banks exposed to large amounts of dodgy debt.. same as in lots of other places, but the bubble got larger, the banks are small and thus less robust by global standards, and the government has embraced extreme austerity to fix debt problem, leading to very little disposable income for most of population. Not a good environment for golf.

[David_Tepper]

Recent thread discussing this topic: http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46594.0/

[Tom_Doak]

Too much debt fuelling a housing bubble, undercapitalised banks exposed to large amounts of dodgy debt.. same as in lots of other places, but the bubble got larger, the banks are small and thus less robust by global standards, and the government has embraced extreme austerity to fix debt problem, leading to very little disposable income for most of population. Not a good environment for golf.

Adam,

Didn't UK banks lend a lot of money into Ireland during the boom, helping to drive up prices?

I suspect that is part of the reason the UK government has offered to step up and assist their dear friends (not the Irish, but the bank bondholders whose money ought to be at risk).

[Sean_A]

http://www.sportsnewsireland.com/2010/11/23/irish-golf-clubs-risk-closure/

interesting in that the article seems to be recommending the formation of an industry group to advocate for all the courses in Ireland. It also implys that self management may be a negative, possibly suggesting more courses to seek professional management.

Kelly

I would like to see evidence that professionals (as in the American style) running a club is better than many volunteers with a vested interest in the future health of a club.  In fact, I am dubious of the current trend of turning Secretaries into club managers including the finance side of the "business".  The last thing I want to see is fancy dan corporate style accounts where hardly anybody knows what the hell is actually going on - this is a major problem with accountants - they want to be flashy with their witch craft.  Bottom line, most clubs are not truly businesses and so cash in/cash out is the best info to find out what is happening with a club, what it can afford to do in the future and what it may need to do for future improvements.

Ciao

[Richard Phinney]

Not sure the bubble in irish golf had much to do with foreign visitors...a lot of high end parkland Irish courses were built that few visitors were inclined to play in any event. But which appealed to the (then) growing number of rich locals. And the corporate market. I presume these will be the most affected in the first instance.  A few hotel properties might also be vulnerable, as the green fee at the Links of Portmarnock (or whatever it calls itself now) seems to indicate....that's a pretty good course for US 50 .

[Rory Connaughton]

Richard, I think there are two issues: (a) the development of courses where there was no sustainable market (this has been discussed in previous threads); and (b) the impact that the financial crisis is having on clubs in general.  The bubble certainly has burst with respect to those courses in category (a) but even clubs with long histories and relatively stable memberships are hurting as a consequence of the drop off in tourism and the impact of the economy on local members.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I first encountered Irish golf back in the 1960s with my father. In those days you could turn up pretty well anywhere and any time and walk out onto the golf course as a green-fee paying visitor. It was not expensive, even at Lahinch or Rosses Point (we didn't play in or around Dublin). In general the Republic was cheap (petrol, food, hotels etc) whereas Northern Ireland seemed to be considerably more expensive than mainland Britain in terms of petrol and food, at least.

The last time I was in the Republic (not to play golf) I was amazed at the transformation: the opulence of the stud farms and big houses, the number of big Mercedes on the road, the formerly deserted white-washed cottages in Donegal now going for €1 million, and the horrific price of food and hotel accommodation. I remember thinking frequently, 'This cannot last!'

In a funny sort of way I'd be quite happy to see the downfall of some of these ultra-expensive golf resorts (for I shall never afford to play there) as long as the members' clubs survive, the Tramores, Bundorans, Heaths and so on: straightforward, friendly clubs, welcoming visitors and offering very enjoyable but simple courses, comparatively easily built and maintained.

[Rory Connaughton]

Mark I suspect that at least some of these golf developments were subterfuge for bank fraud though I have no evidence of that.
While it may be good for golf in a broad sense to see some of those developments fail, the impact of this meltdown on the general population, especially those that stuck it out in Ireland during the 1980's, is heartbreaking. 

[Sean_A]

http://www.sportsnewsireland.com/2010/11/23/irish-golf-clubs-risk-closure/

interesting in that the article seems to be recommending the formation of an industry group to advocate for all the courses in Ireland. It also implys that self management may be a negative, possibly suggesting more courses to seek professional management.

Kelly

I would like to see evidence that professionals (as in the American style) running a club is better than many volunteers with a vested interest in the future health of a club.  In fact, I am dubious of the current trend of turning Secretaries into club managers including the finance side of the "business".  The last thing I want to see is fancy dan corporate style accounts where hardly anybody knows what the hell is actually going on - this is a major problem with accountants - they want to be flashy with their witch craft.  Bottom line, most clubs are not truly businesses and so cash in/cash out is the best info to find out what is happening with a club, what it can afford to do in the future and what it may need to do for future improvements.

Ciao

Sean,

I have seen different approaches to club management. Among the myriad of issues, complaints, etc. regarding the various approaches, two issues that are constant are personal, customer service and the disappearance of money! Accounting for the money coming into the business seems to be a real challenge in this business. Apparently, it finds ways of disappearing.

Kelly

Yes, there has been a general move in the UK toward the use of cards to purchase food and beverage in the clubhouses.  Additionally, I am often suspect of clubs who don't require folks to sign the guest/visitor book.  In these instances I almost invariably pay by credit or at least try to.  That said, it doesn't require professional management to sort out that sort of problem.  I must say that customer service really isn't about a professional manager either.  Usually, folks will remember friendly faces of members who enquire about their day.  It isn't thought of, but the members themselves can do a great deal to make a day good for a visitor.

Ciao 

[Lou_Duran]

I'd ask if we are too golf centric to the point of worrying about things that aren't the actual priority at this point?

It reminds me of the old joke that a biased and imbalanced news org's focus demonstrates with a headline of:

747 crashes  in heart of city - women and children most affected.

 It will all wash out in the end and golf will survive in Ireland and here, IMHO. 

Dick's post reminds me of someone's comment noting how we personalize definitions in terms of context and PoV:  "a 'recession' is when someone we know loses his job; a 'depression" is when we lose ours".

But Dick, why get political again citing the NY Times?  Or was it the Washington Post you were alluding to?

At least you offer some optimism that we'll be OK in the long run.  But, I am puzzled, wasn't it the intellectual giant of your crowd, Lord Keynes, the one who said that "in the long run we are all dead"?   I guess I'll go pound a few balls and think about all this some more.  

http://www.tkc.com/resources/resources-pages/keynes.html

  

[Adam Lawrence]

Too much debt fuelling a housing bubble, undercapitalised banks exposed to large amounts of dodgy debt.. same as in lots of other places, but the bubble got larger, the banks are small and thus less robust by global standards, and the government has embraced extreme austerity to fix debt problem, leading to very little disposable income for most of population. Not a good environment for golf.

Adam,

Didn't UK banks lend a lot of money into Ireland during the boom, helping to drive up prices?

I suspect that is part of the reason the UK government has offered to step up and assist their dear friends (not the Irish, but the bank bondholders whose money ought to be at risk).

Yes, absolutely, although one should also bear in mind the scale of UK/Irish trading relationships. And in particular the importance of Republic markets to the Northern Ireland economy - there are obvious political reasons why the UK government would be very keen to help the NI economy in this context.

Plus, as a number of UK commentators have pointed out, since we in the UK have, up to now at least, retained our credit rating, public borrowing is very cheap, and if they're lending it to the Irish at say five per cent, it's probably quite a nice earner in the medium term.

[Carl Rogers]

In starting this thread, I assumed that older venerable clubs in Ireland such as Lahinch, Ballybunion, RCD, Portmarnock, Portrush etc were the equivilent to WF, ANGC, Shinny & Riveria etc meaning that what ever happened in the world short of nuclear war that they would always have the financial means to go on forever.

To much of an American perspective perhaps.

[Ally Mcintosh]

In starting this thread, I assumed that older venerable clubs in Ireland such as Lahinch, Ballybunion, RCD, Portmarnock, Portrush etc were the equivilent to WF, ANGC, Shinny & Riveria etc meaning that what ever happened in the world short of nuclear war that they would always have the financial means to go on forever.

To much of an American perspective perhaps.

Carl, some of those clubs you mention don't have that much money... Not in the same mould as the exclusive American clubs.

You have to feel that they will survive however because they will always be a first stop for tourists and they are all capable of returning to a low cost maintenance model, at least temporarily.

Some of the older members' parklands can also run a low cost maintenance model and will survive for that reason.

The newer high maintenance model parklands with a plentitude of expensive ancillaries are going to be in trouble, especially the ones with large hotels attached. These were built off the construction bubble, often with no long term sustainable outlook.

[Adam Lawrence]

Portrush and RCD are different animals, insofar as they're in the UK not the Republic of Ireland, but as for the famous old Irish courses, it's hard to see any actually failing - Ally is right, they can cut costs to the bone if they really need to, and the worse the problems of the Euro get the more attractive they are likely to be to US visitors.

The flip side is that a lot of the tourist investments that have upgraded Irish travel in recent years _may_ come under pressure. Fancy hotels and restaurants will find it harder to cut their costs, and local business is likely to be hard to come by.

[Tom_Doak]

Adam:

The competitive exchange rate won't make too much difference if the average American golfer is too broke to make an overseas trip.

Likewise, those great 5% loans you are making to Ireland will be great as long as most of them are repaid with interest ...

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