[Matt_Ward]

I also would like to know how Doonbeg and even Old Head dropped that far.

Doonbeg is a far better course and I wonder if anti-shark hysteria is involved with that call.

Old Head is not by any mean's unworthy of criticism -- but it does have it share of top shelf holes and frankly if views are to count for anything then it's already got that dimension in spades.

I'm still waiting for those denizens who see TEC as being beyond the likes of those courses that are just below it. Ahead of Lahinch and Ballybunion / Old -- surley they jest. Likely the tournament types have made their influence felt for that to have happened.

[Brian Stewart]

I agree with Matt on Old Head and Doonbeg.  I think a lot of the problem that Doonbeg has is the whole non-Irish feel.  The place feels more like Kohler than Ireland and it causes people to look down on it a lot.  That and a few uninteresting holes in the middle of the round.

I've played 39 of the top 100 listed here over the last 10 years and have some opinions on where things lie.  Narin & Portnoo is way too far down IMO as it has some great holes.  Portmarnock is too high as well.  I find all of the courses at Killarney to be absolutely boring and the group I go with agrees.  I'm not sure where they fall but, again, IMO they are way too high on the list.  Honestly I've played 13 of the top 15 and 25 of the top 30 listed and would move several around based on my opinions.  I do love RCD at #1 though as it is simply wonderful.

Just to give you a feel for what people think that are a bit less obsessed with the technical details think I have been on a 2-3 week trip to play in Ireland 9 of the last 11 years.  The group I go with has about 5 or 6 core members that almost always go (people like me), another handful that go a few years here and there and then some first timers.  We usually rotate NW, SW and then Dublin/Northern Ireland every year to keep some variety going.  I can tell you without a doubt that Old Head is by far the most popular course we play.  This is by a wide margin.  In an informal, anecdotal poll I would say that I've asked 50 first time people on the trip over the years what their favorite course we played was and Old Head is 50 for 50.  The second favorite course will be all over the map.  My point is that Old Head is good enough golf that when you combine it with the views that people just simply love it.  I would be hard pressed to find a more beautiful spot to walk around for 4 hours than Old Head when the sun is shining so I can certainly see it.  That said, Enniscrone is probably my favorite place to play on the list.  It isn't the best course but is my favorite place to play.

Generically I would say our group kinda puts this out as a top 10
1. Old Head
2. Enniscrone (we have been there many times and have a great relationship with the place)
3. Royal County Down
4. Ballybunion Old
5. Lahinch
6. Ballyliffin-Glasheedy
7. Royal Portrush
8. Tralee
9. Waterville
10. Narin & Portnoo (we played it as a group for the first time in 2009 and everyone agreed that we needed to come back)

Co. Sligo is interesting as many of our group think it is horrible (I admit I'm one) but one person would probably put it first or second.  He organizes the trip so we have been there 4 or 5 times but he's been getting so hammered on it by the rest of the group that he said he wouldn't go back next time. 

[Adrian_Stiff]

Has Carne moved to another country? That seems a strange omission.

[Brian Stewart]

Has Carne moved to another country? That seems a strange omission.

It is number 25.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Cheers Brian.

[Matt_Ward]

Brian:

I never thought that Doonbeg had the feel of Kohler or was "non-Irish." Interesting observation but the holes at Doonbeg -- minus a few exceptions -- are quite good in many ways. The par-3 14th, I believe, is one of the best short holes you can play in all of Ireland. At 111 yards and when the pin is tucked in the far right with the wind whipping in any direction it takes the surest of strokes to get close to the hole.

I just believe the locals have it in for the place -- the costs are very high -- the clubhouse is grandiose to the max and the association with Greg Norman can likely play in different directions.

[Brian Stewart]

Thanks Matt.  I should have been more clear.  The clubhouse and lodging doesn't feel Irish to me.  The course is just fine in this regard.  And, I completely agree that 14 is excellent.  It is a beautiful hole and quite fun to play.  I think 15 is my favorite hole on the course. 

[Padraig Dooley]

Brian:

I never thought that Doonbeg had the feel of Kohler or was "non-Irish." Interesting observation but the holes at Doonbeg -- minus a few exceptions -- are quite good in many ways. The par-3 14th, I believe, is one of the best short holes you can play in all of Ireland. At 111 yards and when the pin is tucked in the far right with the wind whipping in any direction it takes the surest of strokes to get close to the hole.

I just believe the locals have it in for the place -- the costs are very high -- the clubhouse is grandiose to the max and the association with Greg Norman can likely play in different directions.

Matt, the locals don't have it in for Doonbeg, it was very welcome in the locality. Norman's association wouldn't have any negative effects in Ireland either, clubhouse would have little effect on how people see the course, the price has an effect but not a great one.

The anomalies in this list are probably down to the fact the ranking committee is quite small, personal preferences are more likely to shine through.

The big anomaly is The European ahead of Ballybunion or Lahinch, given a choice I think very few would choose The European over the other two.

[Sean_A]

The list is riddled with so many inland courses, most of which I highly doubt are worth a look for wing nuts, that I find it very disjointed.  As a test, how many here even know the name of all these courses let alone know the courses themselves?  Bottom line, the list is too long and it dilutes why lists exist in the first place.  Ireland is a perfect opportunity for a small panel such as this to chuck out the "rules" and do a short list of say 20ish and an add on list of gems, but the key is to have a good write up of each course with good photography.  Ireland just isn't deep enough to a traditional list.  Ally, see http://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/andrew-cowan-dewar-mingay-thompson-canadas-top-golf-courses for an idea of what I am talking about then get on it!

Its nice to see Donegal do well, its one of my favourites in Ireland.  One the flip side, I can't see how anybody would slip TEC in the top 5, yet leave Enniscrone hanging in the second ten.  In fact, this would be a great compare and contrast exercise for the panel to figure out where they are coming from. 

Ciao

 

[Ally Mcintosh]

Thanks Sean,

I know which way I would like to see the rankings go. Perhaps some of the changes in position this year give a flavour of that.

I think the first thing is to iron out any obvious anomalies and I hope this year has started the process. I can also tell you that ranking 50 to 100 was a very difficult task so you can probably tell where I would like the list to stop. However, 100 has a ring to it for most people and especially those clubs that appear in that region.

It's a list - people will almost automatically disagree.

[Jack_Marr]

Did you get to see Concra Wood, Ally? What did you think?

[Rory Connaughton]

Portmarnock too high (though I am a big fan), Glasheedy to high, Lahinch and Enniscrone too low.
Ballyliffin Old too low. Mullingar too low.

[Jonathan Davison]

Ally, I would be interested in your views of the new courses on the list, Farnham, Bunclody and Concra.

[Matt_Ward]

Padraig:

Thanks for the clarification from the home perspective. No doubt the preferences / biases are showing.

I like Doonbeg but do admit I have not been there in several years -- has the course matured nicely since its opening days ?

Like to pick your brain -- what possibly can be the reasoning for the high position of TEC ?

I don't see it among a top ten -- let alone being #5.

[Sean_A]

Matt

TEC seems to be the white elephant in the room.  The panel ranked it highly, but nobody seems willing to stand behind it.

Ally

Yes I can see with the dramatic shift of some courses that this process is in the middle of a transition.  I hope its a total transition which gives praise where praise is due - even if that means separating out why certain courses are worth seeing even if they aren't good enough to be properly prominent on the national scene.

Ciao     

[Padraig Dooley]

Padraig:

Thanks for the clarification from the home perspective. No doubt the preferences / biases are showing.

I like Doonbeg but do admit I have not been there in several years -- has the course matured nicely since its opening days ?

Like to pick your brain -- what possibly can be the reasoning for the high position of TEC ?

I don't see it among a top ten -- let alone being #5.

Yes Matt, Doonbeg has matured nicely.

I'm not sure why The European is so high, I like the course a lot, it's a very strong test. The strategy off the tee is length based, which can require a longer club for the second shot rather than the tee shot, if the major trouble is to be avoided. This can be an intriguing form of strategy.

The type of scoring system used for the ranking where points are given for different categories on each course and totaled, can have a course where it's total would be higher than the sum of it's parts given a lower ranking and vice versa.

  

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