[Tim Pitner]

Tim (chanting to himself):  "I will not be drawn in by Matt's strawman arguments, I will not be drawn in by Matt's strawman arguments . . . "

[Big Pete]

Tim
Great post
I am now back in the land of Oz , but agree with your assessment of Common Ground
It is a very good golf course , and a great example of what public access golf can look like...
It does not rely on great land , or a big budget - just good architecture.

My caddy at Common Ground was a young local lad , and by the second day we were discussing why I was hitting to different areas ( or attempting to ) on a number of  holes , based on pin positions , wind etc
How many urban public access courses give you the opportunity to plot your way around ( rather than hit between the lines of trees ) , and how cool is that for the education of the next generation of Denver golfers ( and there were plenty of those at Common Ground ) .
Well done , Tim

[David_Elvins]

I played alone at CG and hit numerous shots from different positions on the course. When I rate courses the score element is not the main priority

Matt,

I don't mean this in a glib or argumentative fashion because I have done it myself at times but I get the impression from your reviews and how people react to your reviews that playing multiple balls leads you to make some poor conclusions about courses.  In particular with regards to things such as fairway bunkering.   It is human nature to remeber the good shots more than the bad shots and underestimate the trouble on a golf course.  Also, when playing multiple balls, the tbunkers do not have the same psychological effect on your mind that they do if you are playing a single ball. 

Playing multiple balls lets you see more of the course, but it doesn't give you close to the full architectural experience. 

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:

For what it's worth -- if you can share - what were the costs for CG and for Rawls ?

Matt,

I think in both cases the costs are a matter of public record.  For Common Ground the budget was $4 million.  For The Rawls Course, Jerry Rawls donated $8 million.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom D:

Thanks for the info -- no doubt the extra $$ could have been used for other "wish" list items at CG if desired.

David E:

I beg to disagree -- the way I scoped out CG gave me more time and wherewithal to really see what was there. Playing just one ball and going through the course in a quick four hour round would not have done that for me.

I didn't underestimate anything -- I played from the marginal and the areas where trouble lurked -- you make it sound like I played a mega best ball and simply picked up the others -- I played from a range of areas -- especially when getting near the greens and seeing the contours a few times.

In regards to the psychological effect you mentioned I can visualize clearly what the demands would be if a single ball were in play.
I can understand your thoughts -- just view it differently. Fair enough.

[Ian Andrew]

You can debate anything you want about the architecture, but I prefer the bigger picture with this course, and wish the course was within an hour of where I lived. I would play a lot more.

[Tim_Weiman]

Ian,

About six months ago I relocated from Nashville to Houston. There wasn't anything in Nashville like Common Ground and I have yet to find it here in Houston.

From where I sit you do get the big picture.

Sorry we didn't get to chat at the Ren Cup. Hopefully next time!

[Matt_Ward]

Tim Weiman:

Others can "get the big picture."

I grew up on a muni where grass grew by accident -- rather than by design. I have never forgotten my roots in golf.

A simple tweaking here and there is not a basic retreat on the premise of CG.

There are other courses that do what CG provides and have a better piece of land in which to showcase what is there. I mentioned Wine Valley in the Walla Walla area as one example.

Given the $4 million budget the results at CH are quite good. No doubt it would help other jurisdictions to see what might be possible in their respective areasto duplicate such efforts.

[Tim_Weiman]

Matt,

I hope others can get the picture. Somehow we got bogged down debating whether Common Ground was a world class golf course. My whole point is that the place is something better: it is really good everyday golf rather than “dream golf”. My posts failed to mention the little par 3 course which I thought was wonderful.

Really wish Houston had a place like it.

[Will Smith]

If DC had anything (both public and private) that was half as good as CG, I would get a lot less work done. To me, the thing is certainly not Doak-lite and rather than compare to such abominations as Fossil Trace and other Denver publics, it would be more constructive to compare it to courses on similar properties. Playing Riviera a week later, I was struck by how the courses play from and return to the highest point on the property and then fan out on gentler terrain below. Shinnecock is the same. While CG is not in the same league as those courses, it is a very good golf course filled with strategic options (unless you hit it 350 apparently). It is a course that needs to be played multiple times to see its true strength.

[Matt_Ward]

Will:

Help me out here -- what is the "abominations" you speak to when you mention Fossil Trace? The layout is quite good and provides a solid contirbution to the overall Denver public course player market.

In the DC area -- there are fine public courses -- either west of the city or south. No doubt some are a bit more expensive because of land costs being far greater in your neck of the woods. To say that there is nothing "half as good" in the entire DC market as CG is really a stretch.

I never said CG wasn't good or that it failed to accomplish what it set out to do. A gentle tweaking would provide evem more than what is there now.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Matt
Please get specific
List the holes that need a bunker to tighten the drive landing zone
Maybe those holes had an easy pin that day
Go Yanks!

[Tim Pitner]

Mike,

Matt did give some specifics in post #105. 

[Will Smith]

Actually Matt I just called the whole thing an abomination. The first hole is one of the worst opening holes I have ever played and then it goes down hill from there. The bowl greens are ridiculous and I found the course very dangerous both from errant balls and from getting in an out of bunkers. Combine that with a the need to fly mow the steep slopes and it seems like it would have to be very expensive to maintain - not exactly a great thing for a muni. The rock walls are very cool, but the golf that plays through them is overworked and contrived. All that being said, the place was just as crowded as CG - and good for them.

To me most of the great classic courses score low on the wow factor, and very high in the interest and fun to play factor. CG falls into this category and I can't wait to get back there to play it with different pin positions and a different wind. I would be very happy to never go back to Fossil Trace.

[Matt_Ward]

Will:

DC has issues on the golf front no doubt -- but CG is not twice as good as any other layout within the area -- you did include private and public in your statement.

Frankly, I liked the opening hole at FT -- can be reached in two blows but the semi-blind tee shot and the deep and narrow bunkers which Engh includes makes for a challenging but far starter. You mentioned the bowl greens and I do admit there are few which need some adjustment -- I have never been a fan of the par-3 5th hole there -- Doug W and I have had an ongoing discussion on the merits of that particular hole.

Will, the bunkers at FT are meant to be a penalty -- not what is often done when bunkers are nothing more than glorified pieces of sand with little penalty for the player who finds them.

I also thought Engh did exceptionally well with the tight acreage -- especially on the inner half.

Interesting comment on the wow factor and how that relates to fun and interest. I don't see such a situation as being mutually exclusive. Certain courses can do both -- Wine Valley did that for me in Walla Walla and it's very reasonable to play both in terms of cost and walkability.

[Will Smith]

Matt,

I may have been using a little hyperbole in saying that CG is twice as good as anything in DC, but I can honestly say that I would rather play there than any course in the DC area going all the way up but not including Five Farms.

Having built my fare share of bunkers that are penal, I understand full well that they should be hazards -  just not hazardous to the player and the maintenance crew.

I have not seen Wine Valley, but two of my good friends (Brian Ceasar and Kye Golalby) shaped the thing so I am anxious to see it. I think too often in modern architecture, the architect goes for the wow rather than interesting features that reveal themselves over time. I am glad that they have seemed to achieve both at Wine Valley. CG maybe doesn't have the wow factor, but it is a really solid and good golf course (and not just for what it represents). Maybe Fossil Trace would be better with repeat play, but I can't imagine I will be back to found out when I could play CG down the road.

- Will

[Scott Szabo]

Will,

Is your play of Engh's courses limited to Fossil Trace?  Just curious to find out whether it's the particular course you don't enjoy or the architect's work as a whole.

I've only played one of Engh's courses (Harmony Club) and rather enjoyed it.  That being said, I would imagine the maintenance budget would be quite high, fine for a private club like HC, but not so sure on the public side of things.

[Matt_Ward]

Will:

Twice is good is a stretch -- you are certainly entitled to your opinon.

Wine Valley is a very special place and in my mind a few steps ahead of the likes of CG.

Will, one other point, I can understand your take on FT -- but other Jim Engh public courses are rock solid in my mind. A place like Four Mile Ranch in Canon City, CO has all the elements you say you are seeking. There are other Engh public courses which arer quite affordable that do likewise. Of course, if you sense that all of Engh's work is not worth your time based solely on FT then so be it -- for you.

Scott:

Engh has designed affordable and quality public layouts -- Redlands Mesa is one, FMR is another -- ditto Lakota Canyon Ranch.

[Scott Szabo]

Matt,

I believe you've played Harmony Club.  I love the course, but the way the bunkers are constructed (fairly deep, with steep sides covered in rouh) would seem to be difficult to maintain, and expensive.  Also alot of fairly steep countouring at the green's edges once again covered in thick rough (#7 is one that comes to mind immediately).  Is this typical of an Engh course?  This is the only one I've played.

The 18th leaves a bit to be desired, but the rest of the course as a whole is quite enjoyable.

[Matt_Ward]

ScottZ:

Harmony is plenty of fun to play. Engh did well with such a flat site but still not getting carried away -- sometimes he can overwhelm the land and a few of his other layouts have that issue in my mind.

The bunker concept he creates is also solid. I find that fairway bunkers for the most part from many architects are set extras -- not really something pay attention about. Not so with many Engh courses.

The 18th at Harmony won't make any short list of great holes but how about the invisble par-3 green that wraps around the mounds and can be anywhere from 3-4 clubs. Well done hole !

Now, let's drift back to CG shall we ?

[Greg Chambers]

To answer your question Scott, yes, the majority of his designs include difficult and expensive to maintain bunkers.  I haven't seen Four Mile Ranch, but I have heard there are no bunkers there.  So that would be one exception.

[Matt_Ward]

ScottZ:

Play Four Mile Ranch when you can. First rate effort -- can be walked and is relatively inexpensive to boot.

Other Engh courses in Colorado that are public generally feature green fees which are quite modest too.

Fortunately, Colorado has a solid staple of golf alternatives for the masses to enjoy with CG being one of them.

[Tim Pitner]

I heard that CommonGround will be the other course used when the U.S. Amateur comes to Cherry Hills in 2012.  I suspect that means some new tees will be added and that the fairways will be narrowed for the tournament.  Matt Ward, you might want to come play CG again around that time to see if provides enough challenge for you. 

BTW, I played CG yesterday in a healthy 2-club wind and I found it both challenging and fun. 

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

Let me just say this again -- I have a huge amt of respect for what CG is about and what it was meant to do.

If it should be the qualifier course for the on-site US AM in conjunction with Cherry Hills then hats off to it -- no doubt a few extra tees may be added.

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