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Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the "private national club" business model still work?
« Reply #75 on: November 04, 2010, 07:55:08 PM »

Ben-Are raters given assignments by the magazines and then set up everything themselves? How many courses would an average rater see in a year? Any idea how many members the Outpost Club has? Sorry to pepper you with questions but I would like to become more informed as to how the ratings process works. Thanks. :)

Tim,

It doesn't quite work that militaristically.  You're basically on your own to travel and rate as you see fit.  You're a representative--NOT employee--of the panel and it's associated mag and expected to act accordingly.  Access is never guaranteed and clubs are under zero obligation to allow it.  There are certain quotas that I won't go into here.  Suffice to say that rating is about more than seeing "top 100" type places.  You're on your own dime 100% of the time.  Some clubs extend courtesy, some don't.  And it is completely left to the rater to determine whether or not to accept.  Many raters visit anonymously--meaning they are a guest or are at a public course and don't announce themselves--much of the time in my experiences.  

Outpost Club is only something I know about through friends that are in members.  Contact their website if you want to know more.

Ben Sims and JK-Thanks for the thoughtful responses. They are appreciated.

C. Squier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the "private national club" business model still work?
« Reply #76 on: November 04, 2010, 08:06:31 PM »
If the course is tops, everything else works itself out.

Please list the National Clubs that you are a member of?

Thanks


0.  Please tell me why that is relevant?


It's relevant b/c if you're not comfortable with the prospects of $1000+ rounds of golf in some years, it doesn't matter what course you belong to.  I'm a national member at 2 clubs and 1 local.....I visited my national clubs once each this year for a total of 5 rounds.  


Clint,

I don't follow.  Mike Sweeney was trying (and failing, as usual) to say that because I wasn't a member of a private/national club that my statement -- if the golf course is great I think the business will work itself out -- was not valid.

In light of that clarification, help me understand the point you are making above.

Thanks


Simple, you lack the perspective of someone who has joined/paid for a national membership.  It's not as simple as build it and they will come (and stay).  Sand Hills did it, but plenty of others are struggling....even with great courses. 

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the "private national club" business model still work?
« Reply #77 on: November 04, 2010, 08:19:35 PM »
Clint,

So, what you are saying is that if I were a member of a private/national club and I said "if you build a great golf course (note: I said a course that was "tops") the rest will work itself out," it would some how have the requisite perspective?  Would you agree with me if I said the above and I were a member of a private/national club?  My guess is no.  So, therefore, whether I am a member of a private/national club is irrelevant.

I happen to know members at several private/national clubs and have visited with them and spoken with them about this very issue.  Many of the ones with great golf courses have experienced a GAIN in membership this year.  Are all private/national clubs doing well?  No.  And, I did not say that.  Are the private/national clubs with great golf courses going under?  Please give me some examples.

I understand that some of the private/national clubs (even the ones with great golf courses) have had to re-adjust their forecasts, lower initiations and project out over a longer term for recouping investment.  But, I would argue that because they have a great product, they are capable of "letting the business work itself out" vs the club that may have a lesser product and may be closing.

But then again, I don't know what it is like to pay $1000+ for a round of golf so what do I know.....
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

C. Squier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the "private national club" business model still work?
« Reply #78 on: November 04, 2010, 09:09:12 PM »
Clint,

So, what you are saying is that if I were a member of a private/national club and I said "if you build a great golf course (note: I said a course that was "tops") the rest will work itself out," it would some how have the requisite perspective?  Would you agree with me if I said the above and I were a member of a private/national club?  My guess is no.  So, therefore, whether I am a member of a private/national club is irrelevant.

I happen to know members at several private/national clubs and have visited with them and spoken with them about this very issue.  Many of the ones with great golf courses have experienced a GAIN in membership this year.  Are all private/national clubs doing well?  No.  And, I did not say that.  Are the private/national clubs with great golf courses going under?  Please give me some examples.

I understand that some of the private/national clubs (even the ones with great golf courses) have had to re-adjust their forecasts, lower initiations and project out over a longer term for recouping investment.  But, I would argue that because they have a great product, they are capable of "letting the business work itself out" vs the club that may have a lesser product and may be closing.

But then again, I don't know what it is like to pay $1000+ for a round of golf so what do I know.....

Smarminess won't drag me into an argument....but the simple fact that some "national" membership courses with lesser golf courses are doing better than some with better courses pretty much proves that there is more to the model than a great course. 


JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the "private national club" business model still work?
« Reply #79 on: November 04, 2010, 09:25:27 PM »
Clint,

So, what you are saying is that if I were a member of a private/national club and I said "if you build a great golf course (note: I said a course that was "tops") the rest will work itself out," it would some how have the requisite perspective?  Would you agree with me if I said the above and I were a member of a private/national club?  My guess is no.  So, therefore, whether I am a member of a private/national club is irrelevant.

I happen to know members at several private/national clubs and have visited with them and spoken with them about this very issue.  Many of the ones with great golf courses have experienced a GAIN in membership this year.  Are all private/national clubs doing well?  No.  And, I did not say that.  Are the private/national clubs with great golf courses going under?  Please give me some examples.

I understand that some of the private/national clubs (even the ones with great golf courses) have had to re-adjust their forecasts, lower initiations and project out over a longer term for recouping investment.  But, I would argue that because they have a great product, they are capable of "letting the business work itself out" vs the club that may have a lesser product and may be closing.

But then again, I don't know what it is like to pay $1000+ for a round of golf so what do I know.....

Smarminess won't drag me into an argument....but the simple fact that some "national" membership courses with lesser golf courses are doing better than some with better courses pretty much proves that there is more to the model than a great course. 



Clint,

You throw out the fact that you have 3 memberships and pay $1000+ for rounds of golf as reasons why I should accept your opinion and I am being smug? :o

Which "national" membership clubs with lesser courses are doing better than clubs with better courses?  Which clubs with "better courses" have failed?

P.S. - I asked Mike Sweeney a question, you chose to answer it.  I didn't drag you into anything.  You very well could be right and I'm open to hearing why I am wrong but forgive me for not being persuaded by "I'm Keith Hernandez" arguments.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

C. Squier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the "private national club" business model still work?
« Reply #80 on: November 04, 2010, 09:35:12 PM »
Clint,

So, what you are saying is that if I were a member of a private/national club and I said "if you build a great golf course (note: I said a course that was "tops") the rest will work itself out," it would some how have the requisite perspective?  Would you agree with me if I said the above and I were a member of a private/national club?  My guess is no.  So, therefore, whether I am a member of a private/national club is irrelevant.

I happen to know members at several private/national clubs and have visited with them and spoken with them about this very issue.  Many of the ones with great golf courses have experienced a GAIN in membership this year.  Are all private/national clubs doing well?  No.  And, I did not say that.  Are the private/national clubs with great golf courses going under?  Please give me some examples.

I understand that some of the private/national clubs (even the ones with great golf courses) have had to re-adjust their forecasts, lower initiations and project out over a longer term for recouping investment.  But, I would argue that because they have a great product, they are capable of "letting the business work itself out" vs the club that may have a lesser product and may be closing.

But then again, I don't know what it is like to pay $1000+ for a round of golf so what do I know.....

Smarminess won't drag me into an argument....but the simple fact that some "national" membership courses with lesser golf courses are doing better than some with better courses pretty much proves that there is more to the model than a great course. 



Clint,

You throw out the fact that you have 3 memberships and pay $1000+ for rounds of golf as reasons why I should accept your opinion and I am being smug? :o

Which "national" membership clubs with lesser courses are doing better than clubs with better courses?  Which clubs with "better courses" have failed?

P.S. - I asked Mike Sweeney a question, you chose to answer it.  I didn't drag you into anything.  You very well could be right and I'm open to hearing why I am wrong but forgive me for not being persuaded by "I'm Keith Hernandez" arguments.
::)  Take any national club with a full roster that's not as good as a course with memberships available.  No need for names, but there are plenty of examples.  There are great clubs that are being carried along by more than membership dues.  Just because a benevolent dictator is taking care of business, doesn't mean that your original premise of "everything will work itself out" is true.  Also, failure isn't the only characteristic of a club that's not doing well. 

I also didn't say you should take my opinion.  Just that yours is wrong  ;D 

J Sadowsky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the "private national club" business model still work?
« Reply #81 on: November 05, 2010, 10:31:45 AM »
So going back to my original point.  I looked up the prices of some of these national clubs.  Let's ignore initiation, which ranges but is a lot at some of these clubs.  At $2500-5000 a year, you are talking about $400+ a round for most golfers.  Given replay rates, it just seems like the resorts are the better way to go.  In what is a weekend-getaway-range for my area, you can get on the Cascades course or the Old White for less than that rather easily.  If you are willing to look at the golf courses at some of the ski resorts, there are rather nice (if not architectual masterpiece) courses for $100 or less per round.

And I do understand that there are tradeoffs.  Pace of play and solitude is one.  Exclusivity is another (but isn't that just another Veblen trait, going back to my leisure class point?).*  The ability (though more limited) to network and form relationships is a third.  On the other hand, the resorts tend to have more to do regarding keeping nongolfers interested.  And further, one is not tied to the same destination for all their weekend getaways.

Overall, for most people, including most serious golfers, I think the tradeoff seriously leans towards the resort.  As I said before, I have played 5 rounds in Mexico (on a surprisingly good if somewhat penal Pete Dye course called Iberostar Golf Club).  I played 3 in Jamaica on an admittedly mediocre course called Upton (now Sandals) Golf Club, although the course had a few interesting holes/greens.  I played 2 in Virginia at Wintergreen (one at Devils Knob/Maples, another at Stoney Creek/Rees Jones, both nice).  The 3 rounds in Jamaica were included in my hotel stay (which was around $150pp/pn all inclusive.  4 of the 5 in Mexico were also included (resort was $200pp/pn all inclusive) and the 5th round was a little over $100.  The 2 rounds at Wintergreen were both in the $70 per round.

In other words, the annual cost of my "getaway" golf was, even while creating fictional numbers for my included rounds, easily under $1000.  And the reality is, had I joined a national golf club, I would still have gone to Mexico and Jamaica.  And this ignores the fact that some of these trips - such as my wedding in Mexico - were going to be expenses whether I belonged to a national club or not.

And I appreciate those trying to sell me on the national golf club, but I am only using myself as an example.  I just only see the model working for a handful of people.  Those where money is no object, those whose life has the kind of stability where getting away on weekends is a regular occurrence, or those who -- because of family and their own interests -- dedicate most of their leisure time to golf to the exclusion of other things.  This appears to be a market that, despite record inequality in the United States (and thus more people for whom money is no object), would nonetheless be overall a shrinking market, rather than a growing one.

Seperately, it just seems to me what golf needs is less playgrounds for the wealthy and their friends, and more opportunities for the regular golfer to be able to splurge and see great architecture.  I would have liked to see someone try to set up a resort in the Nebraska Sandhills, where the public could play - in that sense, I am hoping that the Prarie Club (which I am far more likely to get a chance to play, to my chagrin, than Ballyneal in my lifetime) can be a success and a model to encourage both the game of golf and improved golf architecture by showing more golfers the possibilities besides just a parkland course with Augusta conditions as the standard.  In this, I am more and more firmly in agreement with the USGA.

The prices for international membership at some of the English clubs, on the other hand, such as Deal, seems like a real competitor -- if you ignore the price of airfare.  Unfortuantely, there's just too much of the world for me to see - after Vietnam, I still have yet to see China, Egypt/Israel, Peru/the Amazon, Patagonia, NZ/Australia, Japan, etc.  My wanderlust alone would probably keep me from plunking down money on a stationary vacation spot.

* I believe one of my professors was channelling Veblen way back when, as he was discussing that certain luxury goods - such as diamonds - are actually Giffen Goods (that is, goods for which the demand increases as the price increases, contrary to your Econ 101 class.  The original giffen goods were ones that were extremely cheap alternatives, and it was posited that as their price increases, the amount of money people have to spend overall decreases, which requires them to buy more of the cheap alternative relative to a superior, but even more expensive, good).  The "new" giffen theory is that because the interest in the product stems from it being expensive -- and thus being a display of wealth and leiusre -- and that without the air of luxury, there would be limited demand for the good in the first place.  Obviously, a national private club is not a giffen good - I would join one in a heartbeat if the price was, say $100 a year with a $1,000 initiation - but the exclusivity factor seems the same.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the "private national club" business model still work?
« Reply #82 on: November 05, 2010, 10:59:18 AM »
Justin,

Sounds like you are more interested in travelling than in golf.  If you joined a "national" club that was within driving range for long weekends, you could easily get in 20-30 rounds, then you're looking at similar or lower costs per round for better courses, better conditions and less crowds.  Remember if you can easily play in under 4 hours, you can play 36-54 holes a day....If it's a not the right option for you that's fine, but that doesn't mean the model doesn't work for many.  In fact when you compare 20 rounds at a lot of really good national clubs versus 50 rounds at some full membership clubs in higher cost metro areas, I think you'll find the national clubs are a better deal quite often...
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 11:05:06 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the "private national club" business model still work?
« Reply #83 on: November 05, 2010, 11:20:53 AM »
 :-X
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 11:26:42 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Brett_Morrissy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the "private national club" business model still work?
« Reply #84 on: November 05, 2010, 11:25:17 AM »
removed average comment - not assisting this discussion :-[.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 11:34:54 AM by Brett Morrissy »
@theflatsticker

Brent Hutto

Re: Does the "private national club" business model still work?
« Reply #85 on: November 05, 2010, 11:28:04 AM »
Justin,

What your post boils down to is that you spend your vacations traveling overseas to more or less exotic destinations, the only thing that matters to you when you play golf is cost and that you don't really care about architectural or other features of golf courses. In other words, you aren't remotely the sort of person who would be interested in a membership at a private national golf club under any conceivable circumstances.

That doesn't add a whole lot to discussion of the viability of that business model. You weren't interested in what they offer five years ago, you aren't interested today and you won't be interested five years from now. But you would be in favor of better and cheaper resort courses in place you'll be anyway.

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the "private national club" business model still work?
« Reply #86 on: November 05, 2010, 11:32:01 AM »
If you do the math and calculate the cost per round, rarely will the private club option be more economical, unless you play a lot of rounds at modestly priced club.  I makes more economic sense if your wife and children play. The answer I have found to work is just to never do the cost per round calculation and to never let my wife see the club bills.

My point is that most who join private clubs don't do so to save money. There are many other reasons that offset the increased cost, at least for most private club members.
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

J Sadowsky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the "private national club" business model still work?
« Reply #87 on: November 05, 2010, 11:43:24 AM »
Justin,

What your post boils down to is that you spend your vacations traveling overseas to more or less exotic destinations, the only thing that matters to you when you play golf is cost and that you don't really care about architectural or other features of golf courses. In other words, you aren't remotely the sort of person who would be interested in a membership at a private national golf club under any conceivable circumstances.

That doesn't add a whole lot to discussion of the viability of that business model. You weren't interested in what they offer five years ago, you aren't interested today and you won't be interested five years from now. But you would be in favor of better and cheaper resort courses in place you'll be anyway.

the only thing that matters to you when you play golf is cost and that you don't really care about architectural or other features of golf courses.

Yes, that is exactly what I said.  You keep beating up that strawman.

And it seems, at least for some of you, that to bring out the cost of a national private club in a thread about the BUSINESS MODEL of national private clubs is missing the point, out of bounds, or somehow reflects poorly on myself.  I tend to disagree.

As to the traveling, I made that point as an aside, and I used myself as an example.  Put that aside, and just focusing on the local driving-distance options, it still seems that it will be difficult for most working professionals to pull the trigger on a national golf clubs (even restricting the conversation to national golf clubs that are, in fact, within driving distance).  How many working professional members of a national golf club actually do get 20+ rounds in per year.  The answer is empirical, of course, so we can't actually debate this without taking a real survey -- but I personally suspect the answer is relatively few. 

On the other hand, the majority of members of the most prestigious clubs in America - here, for instance, Robert Trent Jones Golf Club -- get rather few rounds per year in any event.  Speaking with a caddie and reading the news, members such as John Roberts, Michael Jordan, George H.W. Bush, etc. (some of which are probably national members), get 2-5 rounds.  And for them, the annual dues are probably not worth their time in filling out the paperwork to withdraw.  Perhaps the members of WFW, CPC, Shinny, ANGC, RTJGC, Riviera, etc. ARE the primary customer base for national golf clubs, and I am just underestimating how many potential customers that really is.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the "private national club" business model still work?
« Reply #88 on: November 05, 2010, 11:48:39 AM »
Justin,

Your numbers are all wrong...Yes there are some rich members of clubs who don't play much and end up paying ridiculous amounts on a per round basis.  Most guys I know, rich or not-so-rich, who belong to clubs, national or local, play a lot of golf.  The knuckleheads on this website can get 10-12 rounds in in one long weekend...how many rounds of golf did you play in 2010?
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 11:50:38 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Joel Zuckerman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the "private national club" business model still work?
« Reply #89 on: November 05, 2010, 12:02:16 PM »
Posted by: Jud Tigerman 
Insert Quote
Justin,

Sounds like you are more interested in travelling than in golf.  If you joined a "national" club that was within driving range for long weekends, you could easily get in 20-30 rounds


Your crystal ball is particularly shiny today.  I have just over 20 rounds in at my national club (75 min. drive) this year, mainly by playing 36 each time I visit.  I will likely get up there 2-3 more times, and knock out at least 5 more rounds (Daylight Savings Time conspiring against me!) to make the year's total 25+

That said, the truly "national" members average 3-4 rounds per year, from what the pro shop tells me..

J Sadowsky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the "private national club" business model still work?
« Reply #90 on: November 05, 2010, 12:07:19 PM »
Justin,

Your numbers are all wrong...Yes there are some rich members of clubs who don't play much and end up paying ridiculous amounts on a per round basis.  Most guys I know, rich or not-so-rich, who belong to clubs, national or local, play a lot of golf.  The knuckleheads on this website can get 10-12 rounds in in one long weekend...how many rounds of golf did you play in 2010?

As I said earlier in this thread, I've played just under 20 rounds of golf this year, which I think is not atypical of a working professional, particularly one who lives in a major metropolitan area and does not belong to a private club (thus, golf becomes practically an all-day commitment).  And I am not saying that the typical private club member does not play his local club in large doses, most clearly do.  But the whole point of a national club membership is that it isn't something most people can do on a regular basis - it requires a stayover.  

But I am willing to concede that if one is merely upper class, can exclusive of their other professional and social commitments and interests make it out to their national club upwards of 10 times a year, and get in 5-10 rounds each trip, then membership is worth it.  Once again, I'm not sure how many people that represents, and will continue to represent - maybe, as someone said in a different thread, doctors?  Certainly not most lawyers, bankers, consultants, big-firm accountants, etc.

EDIT: I am finished with this topic, as the discussion has gotten both exceedingly personal and has become exceedingly hostile, probably at my own fault.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 12:12:26 PM by Justin Sadowsky »

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the "private national club" business model still work?
« Reply #91 on: November 05, 2010, 12:09:03 PM »
Justin,

Just get it over with and join the Outpost Club.  You obviously are their poster boy.

note: If you want to play Ballyneal so badly just go to their web site and fill out the one time play application.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the "private national club" business model still work?
« Reply #92 on: November 05, 2010, 12:10:06 PM »
If $'s/round is your sole axe to grind, then you're on the wrong website dude....
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 12:13:17 PM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Brent Hutto

Re: Does the "private national club" business model still work?
« Reply #93 on: November 05, 2010, 12:14:52 PM »
It's not a straw man. If you think a cost that works out to $100 per round is too great then you're not talking about national private clubs. They are not and can not operate in anything like that sort of price range. You're talking about resort golf and damned cheap resort golf at that. Guys that want to play a good course for 40, 50, 60 bucks for a round within easy driving distance of their house a couple times a month are not potential members of private national clubs. They are budget-conscious public course golfers. God love 'em. That's the core of the business of golf but it's no part of nothing to do with private national clubs.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the "private national club" business model still work?
« Reply #94 on: November 05, 2010, 12:23:14 PM »
Of the handful of clubs where I am a member anyone can call up and play unaccompanied for a cost of less per round than what I pay.  I fully support the clubs decision to allow unaccompanied play, I'm happy for the individuals who enjoy the experience and glad for the club getting some revenue and exposure.  People who remember may be shocked at my 180 degree turn on this subject but it is healthier for me and my clubs.

Get ya some if that is what makes you happy.

note:  If I do not reply to any questions or comments please be advised that I have promised myself not to text and drive as I am driving down to play a national course with three good friends I would have never known if I had not become a member.  My alternative is to stay at work because I will not play boring architecture in this horrid weather.  My cost per round...where's the beef? (wrong commercial, oops)

Bruce Wellmon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the "private national club" business model still work?
« Reply #95 on: November 05, 2010, 12:52:04 PM »
Someone educate me please.
What "national" private clubs are in NC/SC ?
Pinehurst, Secession, Dormie, the proposed Contentment, Yeamen's, Sage Valley, Bull's Bay? The Cliffs?

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Does the "private national club" business model still work?
« Reply #96 on: November 05, 2010, 01:03:12 PM »

...I just only see the model working for a handful of people. Those where money is no object, those whose life has the kind of stability where getting away on weekends is a regular occurrence, or those who -- because of family and their own interests -- dedicate most of their leisure time to golf to the exclusion of other things.  This appears to be a market that, despite record inequality in the United States (and thus more people for whom money is no object), would nonetheless be overall a shrinking market, rather than a growing one.


Let's ignore the ridiculous generalization of the rest of the paragraph and focus on the blue area.  I would argue that the type of club you're referring to in this thread wants it that way.  In fact, I know an owner at a newer and very well respected national club that espouses this very idea.  Most of these places want a membership that "get it".  Right now, it's hard to find 200 folks that "get it" for 50 grand.  But that will end one day.

Those that are willing to plop down some dough for a special experience will never go away.  There are times when the economy dictates that less of them are available.  But the population isn't shrinking.  And there will be a time when folks have more expendable income.  I can't agree that the model doesn't work.  It's hard right now for sure, but the model works.  It's been proven.

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the "private national club" business model still work?
« Reply #97 on: November 05, 2010, 01:04:13 PM »
Someone educate me please.
What "national" private clubs are in NC/SC ?
Pinehurst, Secession, Dormie, the proposed Contentment, Yeamen's, Sage Valley, Bull's Bay? The Cliffs?

Diamond Creek in Banner Elk, NC would count.  Dormie would have been/is.

Bart

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the "private national club" business model still work?
« Reply #98 on: November 05, 2010, 02:12:38 PM »
The last time I counted  Forest Creek had members from 29 states and 6 foreign countries. Less that a quarter of the members live in Moore County and less than half live in NC. I think that qualifies as a "national private" club.

Cherokee Plantation is an international club. Hardly any of the members are from SC.

I think the members would consider Wade Hampton a national club. Not many of their members are from NC although I doubt if many are from west of the Mississippi.
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the "private national club" business model still work?
« Reply #99 on: November 05, 2010, 02:13:49 PM »
I don't think clubs where property ownership is a requirement for membership should truly be considered national membership clubs...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak