[Tim Martin]

I don't know many guys my demographic (late 30s, kids, professional types) who belong to private clubs.  For guys who can afford it, they just don't have the time and it doesn't work for the family (something that has been discussed on here before).

I think for many of them, the national model has more appeal.  Less $$ perhaps, and these guys usually are able to get away for a few weekends more easily than they can get in rounds at home on a regular basis. 

Of all the golf I've played this year, less than 10 rounds were in the city where I am living or was living at the time.

JC-That only means you can`t get a game in your home town.

[George Pazin]

Do you think you are that much different from your fellow private club members?

Are you serious?!?

In the context of your post and this thread, absolutely. You ask why anyone would join, given the fact that the internet and ratings panels have made access so much easier. My question was meant for you to ask yourself why you joined - I'd be surprised if access was the answer.

If you took my question in a more general sense, well, I'll admit, you're unique-er than most...

[RSLivingston_III]

I have been like Joel. I am just under a two hour drive and prefer to go up on my own and play until I can't see any my shots. Then bail out to the cabins for the night. Getting up the next morning it is easy to get a round with others that are there, or preferably play on my own (in way less than 4 hours) and get back home early.
I got lucky being 33 miles outside the local membership range.
It is a great way to reduce stress of the job and as a bonus the wife loves staying in the cottages and going into town for dinner.

[JC Jones]

I don't know many guys my demographic (late 30s, kids, professional types) who belong to private clubs.  For guys who can afford it, they just don't have the time and it doesn't work for the family (something that has been discussed on here before).

I think for many of them, the national model has more appeal.  Less $$ perhaps, and these guys usually are able to get away for a few weekends more easily than they can get in rounds at home on a regular basis. 

Of all the golf I've played this year, less than 10 rounds were in the city where I am living or was living at the time.

JC-That only means you can`t get a game in your home town.

Oh it cuts like a knife!

I would like to classify it more as me having heretofore lived in places with less than inspiring golf courses

[John Kavanaugh]

Do you think you are that much different from your fellow private club members?

Are you serious?!?

In the context of your post and this thread, absolutely. You ask why anyone would join, given the fact that the internet and ratings panels have made access so much easier. My question was meant for you to ask yourself why you joined - I'd be surprised if access was the answer.

If you took my question in a more general sense, well, I'll admit, you're unique-er than most...

George,

Probably my greatest fault in life that will eventually be my physical and financial demise is that once is never enough for me.  I need to join a club to be able to play it as much as I want whenever I want.  It is all about the access my friend.

When I eat a dessert my favorite part is taking my finger and wiping that bowl clean.  You can only do that inside the confines of your own home.

[Brent Hutto]

When I eat a dessert my favorite part is taking my finger and wiping that bowl clean.  You can only do that inside the confines of your own home.

That may be. But if the dessert is good enough I'll do it with my tongue at a restaurant.

[JC Jones]

When I eat a dessert my favorite part is taking my finger and wiping that bowl clean.  You can only do that inside the confines of your own home.

That may be. But if the dessert is good enough I'll do it with my tongue at a restaurant.

There is a visual I could have gone a lifetime without.

[John Kavanaugh]

When I eat a dessert my favorite part is taking my finger and wiping that bowl clean.  You can only do that inside the confines of your own home.

That may be. But if the dessert is good enough I'll do it with my tongue at a restaurant.

Have you shaven since we last met? Nobody walks out of any self respecting restaurant sporting beard juice.

[Tim Bert]

When I eat a dessert my favorite part is taking my finger and wiping that bowl clean.  You can only do that inside the confines of your own home.

Most importantly, you should be comfortable doing this at your home in the presence of your best friends and not just your family.  Your friends should feel comfortable doing the same when they are visiting.

[George Pazin]

George,

Probably my greatest fault in life that will eventually be my physical and financial demise is that once is never enough for me.  I need to join a club to be able to play it as much as I want whenever I want.  It is all about the access my friend.

When I eat a dessert my favorite part is taking my finger and wiping that bowl clean.  You can only do that inside the confines of your own home.

You're using access in a different sense in this explanation, and I'd guess your reason is the primary motivator for the overwhelming majority of private club members. I took your earlier post to mean that the ability to access private clubs via the internet and ratings panels - which, correct me if I'm wrong, tends to be far more occasional access - is what is causing the demise of private clubs.

My idea of the perfect dessert after a nice steak dinner is a slice of pizza, so your dessert analogy is lost on me...

[John Kavanaugh]

George,

Probably my greatest fault in life that will eventually be my physical and financial demise is that once is never enough for me.  I need to join a club to be able to play it as much as I want whenever I want.  It is all about the access my friend.

When I eat a dessert my favorite part is taking my finger and wiping that bowl clean.  You can only do that inside the confines of your own home.

You're using access in a different sense in this explanation, and I'd guess your reason is the primary motivator for the overwhelming majority of private club members. I took your earlier post to mean that the ability to access private clubs via the internet and ratings panels - which, correct me if I'm wrong, tends to be far more occasional access - is what is causing the demise of private clubs.

My idea of the perfect dessert after a nice steak dinner is a slice of pizza, so your dessert analogy is lost on me...

George,

The thousand or so lost memberships because of the ratings panels and bloggers are only part of the problem.  I am sure they would each claim to be responsible for getting the word out on courses and increasing memberships, so it may be a wash.  I just don't agree as I found Ron Whitten's best new list just as informative as the cumulative Golfweek list.  I also can only speak for myself that if I was on a rating panel I would not be a member of the number of courses I currently am.  Based on this fact my number of 1000 lost memberships is solid.

[George Pazin]

Interesting way of looking at it. I'm neither, so I can't even begin to speculate.

[Tim Martin]

I don't know many guys my demographic (late 30s, kids, professional types) who belong to private clubs.  For guys who can afford it, they just don't have the time and it doesn't work for the family (something that has been discussed on here before).

I think for many of them, the national model has more appeal.  Less $$ perhaps, and these guys usually are able to get away for a few weekends more easily than they can get in rounds at home on a regular basis. 

Of all the golf I've played this year, less than 10 rounds were in the city where I am living or was living at the time.

JC-That only means you can`t get a game in your home town.

Oh it cuts like a knife!

I would like to classify it more as me having heretofore lived in places with less than inspiring golf courses

It may just be that your recent Main Line exploits have exposed you as the true social climber you really are. That photo of you gazing into the trophy case at Merion with the beard puller pose says "I want turtle soup tepid not hot and I want it now".

[JC Jones]

I don't know many guys my demographic (late 30s, kids, professional types) who belong to private clubs.  For guys who can afford it, they just don't have the time and it doesn't work for the family (something that has been discussed on here before).

I think for many of them, the national model has more appeal.  Less $$ perhaps, and these guys usually are able to get away for a few weekends more easily than they can get in rounds at home on a regular basis. 

Of all the golf I've played this year, less than 10 rounds were in the city where I am living or was living at the time.

JC-That only means you can`t get a game in your home town.

Oh it cuts like a knife!

I would like to classify it more as me having heretofore lived in places with less than inspiring golf courses

It may just be that your recent Main Line exploits have exposed you as the true social climber you really are. That photo of you gazing into the trophy case at Merion with the beard puller pose says "I want turtle soup tepid not hot and I want it now".

with 3 dashes of sherry.

[JC Jones]

George,

Probably my greatest fault in life that will eventually be my physical and financial demise is that once is never enough for me.  I need to join a club to be able to play it as much as I want whenever I want.  It is all about the access my friend.

When I eat a dessert my favorite part is taking my finger and wiping that bowl clean.  You can only do that inside the confines of your own home.

You're using access in a different sense in this explanation, and I'd guess your reason is the primary motivator for the overwhelming majority of private club members. I took your earlier post to mean that the ability to access private clubs via the internet and ratings panels - which, correct me if I'm wrong, tends to be far more occasional access - is what is causing the demise of private clubs.

My idea of the perfect dessert after a nice steak dinner is a slice of pizza, so your dessert analogy is lost on me...

George,

The thousand or so lost memberships because of the ratings panels and bloggers are only part of the problem.  I am sure they would each claim to be responsible for getting the word out on courses and increasing memberships, so it may be a wash.  I just don't agree as I found Ron Whitten's best new list just as informative as the cumulative Golfweek list.  I also can only speak for myself that if I was on a rating panel I would not be a member of the number of courses I currently am.  Based on this fact my number of 1000 lost memberships is solid.

I know of many Golfweek raters (though I am not one) who are members of private clubs.  Some of them are even members of multiple clubs.

[Eric Smith]

Does the "private national club without a golf course" business model work?

[Ben Sims]

I don't know why anyone joins a club when it is so much easier to write a blog or become a magazine rater.  Funny thing how the popularity of blogs and expansion of rater panels all coincided with the demise of golf.  The internet has made it hard to join anything when you are already a part of everything.

John,

On a personal level I would argue that you're dead wrong.  Being a rater and "visiting" clubs is a large catalyst behind my researching and pursuing a membership.  I always felt like a visitor--though happy to be there--and wanted a "home".  

I have also had many conversations that centered around the idea that traveling to courses as a rater eats up any expendable income one might have to join a club.  After airfare, hotels, food, green fees, caddies, etc., it's not cheap to travel to rate courses.  Most do it because they love it and feel strongly about how the lists affect golf architecture.  

I do think you're onto something with your quote above in relation to how many raters are becoming new members at clubs.  Not many I'd assume.  New models like the Outpost Club also effect the bottom line as well.

In the end, this question becomes a measure of feasibility.  Though we happen to have many of them on this website, folks that pay 5 figures to join a place they visit a handful of times per year are tough to find right now.

[John Kavanaugh]

I have also had many conversations that centered around the idea that traveling to courses as a rater eats up any expendable income one might have to join a club.  After airfare, hotels, food, green fees, caddies, etc., it's not cheap to travel to rate courses.  

That is exactly why if I was a rater I would have to drop a membership at one of my clubs.  I am not bashing raters, I am simply saying how I believe the current system of producing lists affects the private national club business model.

In my entire travels I have only met one rater who I would not have stay at my home.  Make that two, but that percentage is the inverse of any other demographic that comes to mind.  I heart raters.

I never understood why this Outpost Club thing is so secretive.  On the surface it seems like a fantastic idea.

[Ben Sims]

I have also had many conversations that centered around the idea that traveling to courses as a rater eats up any expendable income one might have to join a club.  After airfare, hotels, food, green fees, caddies, etc., it's not cheap to travel to rate courses.  

That is exactly why if I was a rater I would have to drop a membership at one of my clubs.  I am not bashing raters, I am simply saying how I believe the current system of producing lists affects the private national club business model.

I think it matters a great deal.  Lets say one, JUST ONE, person decides to join Ballyhack or Chicago Highlands based on a Best New list or article.  That's a huge chunk of money in fees and dues.  The upscale national club has more to gain from a solid ranking than any other demographic of golf course. 

But I don't think a loss of revenue from raters not becoming members of new clubs has any appreciable affect on the business model.  I also think groups like the Outpost Club are doing a hell of a job of hedging some of these clubs in a poor economy. 

Smart people making smart business choices.

[John Kavanaugh]

Ben,

I agree as I am sure you will too that the Ron Whitten best new article in Golf Digest is far more likely to garner a new membership for either Ballyhack or Chicago Highlands than not cracking the top ten in the Golfweek best new list. 

[Tim Martin]

I don't know why anyone joins a club when it is so much easier to write a blog or become a magazine rater.  Funny thing how the popularity of blogs and expansion of rater panels all coincided with the demise of golf.  The internet has made it hard to join anything when you are already a part of everything.

John,

On a personal level I would argue that you're dead wrong.  Being a rater and "visiting" clubs is a large catalyst behind my researching and pursuing a membership.  I always felt like a visitor--though happy to be there--and wanted a "home".  

I have also had many conversations that centered around the idea that traveling to courses as a rater eats up any expendable income one might have to join a club.  After airfare, hotels, food, green fees, caddies, etc., it's not cheap to travel to rate courses.  Most do it because they love it and feel strongly about how the lists affect golf architecture.  

I do think you're onto something with your quote above in relation to how many raters are becoming new members at clubs.  Not many I'd assume.  New models like the Outpost Club also effect the bottom line as well.

In the end, this question becomes a measure of feasibility.  Though we happen to have many of them on this website, folks that pay 5 figures to join a place they visit a handful of times per year are tough to find right now.

Ben-Are raters given assignments by the magazines and then set up everything themselves? How many courses would an average rater see in a year? Any idea how many members the Outpost Club has? Sorry to pepper you with questions but I would like to become more informed as to how the ratings process works. Thanks.

[John Kavanaugh]

Tim,

I have a good friend who is a rater who often plays 100 new courses each year.  I know other raters who play as few as five. They really are a great group of people who when not on rater outings set everything up themselves.  Occasionally they are assigned courses but this is rare which explains how each group justifies the need to have such large rater corps.

If you are truly interested in the process and want to meet some great people while seeing some of the finest architecture in the world I would suggest you attend one of the fantastic rater retreats that are held throughout the year.  They are listed on the Golfweek site and often open to the public.  A fantastic event where many of my good friends will be attending is in Kiawah as found on this link:

http://golfweek.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/golfweek9/event/golfweek917/index.htm

[Ben Sims]

Ben-Are raters given assignments by the magazines and then set up everything themselves? How many courses would an average rater see in a year? Any idea how many members the Outpost Club has? Sorry to pepper you with questions but I would like to become more informed as to how the ratings process works. Thanks.

Tim,

It doesn't quite work that militaristically.  You're basically on your own to travel and rate as you see fit.  You're a representative--NOT employee--of the panel and it's associated mag and expected to act accordingly.  Access is never guaranteed and clubs are under zero obligation to allow it.  There are certain quotas that I won't go into here.  Suffice to say that rating is about more than seeing "top 100" type places.  You're on your own dime 100% of the time.  Some clubs extend courtesy, some don't.  And it is completely left to the rater to determine whether or not to accept.  Many raters visit anonymously--meaning they are a guest or are at a public course and don't announce themselves--much of the time in my experiences.  

Outpost Club is only something I know about through friends that are in members.  Contact their website if you want to know more.

[C. Squier]

If the course is tops, everything else works itself out.

Please list the National Clubs that you are a member of?

Thanks

0.  Please tell me why that is relevant?

It's relevant b/c if you're not comfortable with the prospects of $1000+ rounds of golf in some years, it doesn't matter what course you belong to.  I'm a national member at 2 clubs and 1 local.....I visited my national clubs once each this year for a total of 5 rounds.  


John Kavanaugh - most of the Golfweek raters I know well are members of clubs.  For nearly every one who is not a private club member, I know one who maintains more than one membership.  Many of which were joined b/c of rater visits.  Some raters will never join a club, for whatever reason.  So I'll disagree that rater panels affect club memberships in a material way.  As for the raters I know who take their role seriously, it's a 5 figure annual expense as well.  For those who expect it to be a great way to play cheap golf, they're mistaken.  

[JC Jones]

If the course is tops, everything else works itself out.

Please list the National Clubs that you are a member of?

Thanks

0.  Please tell me why that is relevant?

It's relevant b/c if you're not comfortable with the prospects of $1000+ rounds of golf in some years, it doesn't matter what course you belong to.  I'm a national member at 2 clubs and 1 local.....I visited my national clubs once each this year for a total of 5 rounds.  

Clint,

I don't follow.  Mike Sweeney was trying (and failing, as usual) to say that because I wasn't a member of a private/national club that my statement -- if the golf course is great I think the business will work itself out -- was not valid.

In light of that clarification, help me understand the point you are making above.

Thanks

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