[JC Jones]

Justin,

It sounds like a national club DOES have appeal to you and that you have other roadblocks.

[John Kavanaugh]

Justin,

You can't join a national destination club until you realize it isn't all about you.  Of all the stories we have heard Gene and Jim tell about their experiences I can not recall a single instance where they were playing without guests.  Maybe you should talk your wife into joining a club.

John,

I guess that would just be another problem.  I do not really have a large group of friends that are interested in golf.  One of my friends used to bartend at Oakland Hills, but he gets out maybe a few times a year.  While I have a few clients and associates who golf, I do not think any of them would necessarily be that interested in taking a weekend trip with me.  

Justin,

I personally don't have a large group of friends either but I do have a ton of buds who love to play golf.  

[J Sadowsky]

Justin,

It sounds like a national club DOES have appeal to you and that you have other roadblocks.

JC, you may be confusing the national club with "more golf in my life generally."  I'd love to be able to golf more and ignoring finances would certainly like to join a private local club (more so than be able to afford a nice house in a good school district in Arlington for when I have kids, while having both a travel-the-world budget and a minimal "foodie" budget? probably not).  But unless it really would be a relative wash to be a member of Ballyhack versus make it out to Wintergreen once or twice a summer, it's hard for me to see the appeal in the National Golf Club - particularly when going to the same destination club a few times each year competes with the chance to see other courses of architectural merit, of which there are enough in the continental US alone to satisfy me for many years (Bandon, Pebble, Straits, Pinehurst, Myrtle, Hilton Head, Kiawah, Homestead, Greebriar, NoMi, Vegas, just to name a few).  I'll keep an open mind to it, but as I've mentioned, I am starting from a place of skepticism.

I will agree that I have other roadblocks in any event.  But are these roadblocks really atypical of your average young professional first-generation-upscale/not-of-the-leisure-class golfer?

[JC Jones]

I don't think so.  I have roadblocks as well, which prevent me from joining both a local and a national club. 

That does not, however, make me skeptical of the business model.  I have roadblocks that prevent me from going to Bandon and Pebble and many other places. 

As I said at the top of this thread, if the course is tops, people will come.  Old Mac opened in one of the worst economic times we've seen in quite a while.  Seems to me it is doing just fine.

By the way, the cost for a few days in Bandon would likely cover your annual dues at most of these private national clubs and with a place like Ballyhack you could get there a half dozen times a year.

[John Kavanaugh]

Justin,

I really never was young upscale with a hot wife and no kids but if I was I doubt I would golf as much as I do now as a guy married to a 50 year old stay at home mom with three kids.  

This thing you call yourself "But are these roadblocks really atypical of your average young professional first-generation-upscale/not-of-the-leisure-class golfer?" are you kidding me?  Whose demographic do your people fit and how much longer are they going to be making you?

Are you the same thing as an MD who grew up in a middle class family, because those guys are the very fabric of the modern club.  I'm not feeling that from you.

[Bill_McBride]

I don't know....

I think this will be an interesting year for many of the people that will be considered members for such clubs in America.  For example just this past Tuesday I saw several good friends that had properties which gave them net worths of a few million dollars and had always allowed for pretty good incomes.....new appraisals on shopping centers and apartments and the next thing you know these same guys are leaving clubs and trying to figure how they will even make it....and so many of these guys are over 60 years of age....I think the age of the developer as we knew it has passed and will not return in the same manner....this will be the year of commercial RE failures and IMHO many of the entreprenuers will take a harder look at such items as clubs....JMO

Sad but true.

[George Pazin]

Of course it still works, it just doesn't work as easily as it did.

That's pretty much the norm for everything these days.

[Tim Bert]

Justin - you mention not having a large group of friends that are interested in golf in response to John's comments about Jim.  Perhaps you haven't seen the threads, read the blog, or been to watch the movie (just kidding about the movie) but I'd venture to guess that 90%+ of the people that have experienced the joy of Jim's course with him had never met him until they were a guest at his club.  The first time I met him was literally the first tee.

On a separate note, you never know when a national club will sneak up on you when you aren't paying attention, so don't discount the model until you've had an experience or two.  It may sound like something that doesn't fit into your life, but there have been others before you that didn't think it fit prior to joining.

[Will MacEwen]

I don't know many guys my demographic (late 30s, kids, professional types) who belong to private clubs.  For guys who can afford it, they just don't have the time and it doesn't work for the family (something that has been discussed on here before).

I think for many of them, the national model has more appeal.  Less $$ perhaps, and these guys usually are able to get away for a few weekends more easily than they can get in rounds at home on a regular basis. 

[JC Jones]

I don't know many guys my demographic (late 30s, kids, professional types) who belong to private clubs.  For guys who can afford it, they just don't have the time and it doesn't work for the family (something that has been discussed on here before).

I think for many of them, the national model has more appeal.  Less $$ perhaps, and these guys usually are able to get away for a few weekends more easily than they can get in rounds at home on a regular basis. 

Of all the golf I've played this year, less than 10 rounds were in the city where I am living or was living at the time.

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't know why anyone joins a club when it is so much easier to write a blog or become a magazine rater.  Funny thing how the popularity of blogs and expansion of rater panels all coincided with the demise of golf.  The internet has made it hard to join anything when you are already a part of everything.

[Joel Zuckerman]

Justin,

You can't join a national destination club until you realize it isn't all about you.  Of all the stories we have heard Gene and Jim tell about their experiences I can not recall a single instance where they were playing without guests.  Maybe you should talk your wife into joining a club.

Interesting perspective.  I am a local member of a national club (about 75 min. away) and find myself playing more and more as a single...getting guys to commit for a day trip or an overnight trip is a real hassle.  I'll go up once every 4-5 weeks and walk 18 minimum, usually 36 (and to celebrate my 50th birthday this past Monday, 50 holes) without any guests, or maybe just one guest.

As long as the tee sheet is sparse, and I pick a day/time that is quiet (more so these days than previously, as the club's business has dropped off in the last year or two) this is a great way to enjoy the day, and a fine GC.

[JMEvensky]

 The internet has made it hard to join anything when you are already a part of everything.

I'm not sure if this is brilliant,insane,or equal parts of each.But,I think you're onto something.

[George Pazin]

 The internet has made it hard to join anything when you are already a part of everything.

I'm not sure if this is brilliant,insane,or equal parts of each.But,I think you're onto something.

My vote is none of the above.

Seriously, John, do you think that there were not ways onto private clubs before the internet besides joining a club yourself? It may have made things simpler to arrange, but it may have created other problems as well.

You belong to several, no? Do you think you are that much different from your fellow private club members?

People join clubs for all sorts of reasons. Clubs succeed or don't for all sorts of reasons. The desire to intellectualize everything means some folks want to examine the model, but the model is probably the smallest part of the equation.

[John Kavanaugh]

Do you think you are that much different from your fellow private club members?

Are you serious?!?

[Brian Marion]

As with a lot of things, only time will tell....

What many see are changing demographics and user models of all golf course operations. Private clubs struggling, daily fee struggling, public/muni golf struggling. All for the same...and different reasons at the same time.

Does a National model make sense? Sure, if you have done your homework, made a sound business plan and all of the other factors that go into a good biz decision...or, you have a ton of money and can support a loss each year and that doesn't bother you. Nothing wrong with either really.

[JC Jones]

Justin,

You can't join a national destination club until you realize it isn't all about you.  Of all the stories we have heard Gene and Jim tell about their experiences I can not recall a single instance where they were playing without guests.  Maybe you should talk your wife into joining a club.

Interesting perspective.  I am a local member of a national club (about 75 min. away) and find myself playing more and more as a single...getting guys to commit for a day trip or an overnight trip is a real hassle.  I'll go up once every 4-5 weeks and walk 18 minimum, usually 36 (and to celebrate my 50th birthday this past Monday, 50 holes) without any guests, or maybe just one guest.

As long as the tee sheet is sparse, and I pick a day/time that is quiet (more so these days than previously, as the club's business has dropped off in the last year or two) this is a great way to enjoy the day, and a fine GC.

True, Joel.  But you also fit into what JK was saying.  You are very generous with your invitations.

[Mike Sweeney]

I don't know why anyone joins a club when it is so much easier to write a blog or become a magazine rater.  Funny thing how the popularity of blogs and expansion of rater panels all coincided with the demise of golf.  The internet has made it hard to join anything when you are already a part of everything.

Other than Golfweek, have Golf or GD expanded? I would guess it is a factor of shrinking ad pages and the GW panel was built up to offset the reduced ad revenues.

What ever happened to the JakaBlog?

[JC Jones]

I don't know why anyone joins a club when it is so much easier to write a blog or become a magazine rater.  Funny thing how the popularity of blogs and expansion of rater panels all coincided with the demise of golf.  The internet has made it hard to join anything when you are already a part of everything.

Other than Golfweek, have Golf or GD expanded? I would guess it is a factor of shrinking ad pages and the GW panel was built up to offset the reduced ad revenues.

What ever happened to the JakaBlog?

What ever happened to you answering questions?

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't know why anyone joins a club when it is so much easier to write a blog or become a magazine rater.  Funny thing how the popularity of blogs and expansion of rater panels all coincided with the demise of golf.  The internet has made it hard to join anything when you are already a part of everything.

Other than Golfweek, have Golf or GD expanded? I would guess it is a factor of shrinking ad pages and the GW panel was built up to offset the reduced ad revenues.

What ever happened to the JakaBlog?

I don't blog anymore for the same reason I no longer drink and drive.  It's not that I can't, it's the humiliation of being caught doing so.

[Scott Stearns]

national model depends on guys bringing guests (almost all models depend on guests--the wife and three kids cost money, they dont generate revenue)  most of these guests are customers.  with the cutbacks in corp entertainment, this model has come under severe pressure (i.e. it doesnt work)

Joel Z summed it up.  its tough to get three guys to commit to go to Bandon, let alone a trip to, say, South Carolina or Denver to play golf and pay for the privlege.

[Jud_T]

I got 16 guys to commit to Bandon in an hour, then the wait list commenced....

[JC Jones]

I got 16 guys to commit to Bandon in an hour, then the wait list commenced....

Yeah, well I got 24 guys to commit to Bandon in 30 minutes.

[Jud_T]

I wasn't referring to the East Lansing unemployable gorse-clearing charity caravan....I was referring to actual paying customers...

[JC Jones]

I wasn't referring to the East Lansing unemployable gorse-clearing charity caravan....I was referring to actual paying customers...

Yes, but in true UofM fashion they were paying with their parents' money.

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