Elbow Bunker that needs to go !!!!

[archie_struthers]

 

Philadelphia CC    (PCC)  is a great old Flynn golf course in Gladwyn , a suburb of the city.  It features twenty seven holes of golf , the original course being the Spring Mill Course ( Flynn )  and a  nine hole additon  (Centennial )  Fazio--Jan Beljan built  (1995???)  to take some extra play pressure off the main course

 Spring Mill  was the scene of Byron Nelson's famous US Open win.  Sam Snead had a late train wreck,  Nelson made a fantastic eagle and the rest is history.  

The Spring Mill course is excellent and well maintained , Mike McNulty has done  a fabulous job as superintendent and every year they have a fine local am event in honor of pro emeritus Tim DeBaufre , a good friend of Byron and a fine player.  I am lucky enough to participate every year and after a few beers one of the locals usually asks me about the bunker on #14 , a nice downhill par four with a great canted (left to right) green and rolling fairway .  AN ELBOW BUNKER AT ABOUT 250 YARDS FROM THE BACK TEE PROTECTS (lol)  cutting the slight dogleg left .  The bunker is fairly large and benign and I've got my reasons whiy it should go from aesthetic to strategic.  


ps if someone could psot a schmeatic of 14 PCC  using superior technical skills it woudl be appreciated and help the exercise

[Adam Clayman]

Archie, I tried to find something, anything, that would work. Mo luck.

Their website is for members only and golf link doesn't have a scorecard.

I could post the aerial, and you could possible tell me which hole is the 14th on the SM course?

I did look at it, and couldn't really tell which elbow bunker you were referencing. I was shocked by the white consistency of the sand on the entire property.

[TEPaul]

ARCHIE:

I've just never been able to understand what it is about that bunker that sets you off so. Off the newest back tee that bunker is pretty far out there and in my opinion if someone wants to try to carry right over it they should be rewarded by having fairway directly behind it even going up on the hill some. I say that because the problem with big hitters who pound it right of it and past it are prone to going right off the fairway on the right.

[archie_struthers]

 


Hey guys maybe Joe Bausch or amie can post something to help ...JES egged me on to go off about the bunker , and I'm easily enticed when it come to good GCA

[John Shimony]

I can report back from the GAP Winter Series event at Philly CC that said bunker did not come into play from the WHITE tees for the young guns in my group.  The bunkers were as advertised though.  Well maintained and in spots that made you think, though more so I am told if one is playing from the back tees.  I played left of a few holes to avoid drop-offs on the right side and ended up in bunkers from which I looked out across the green and out over the beautiful Schuylkill River Valley.  All in all a very nice course.

[Joe Bausch]

I've got all kinds of early articles on Philly CC, but no pics.   

But I think this is the 14th hole Archie is talking about from a Google aerial.  From the tee I have the measurement line, it is a 285 to clear that bunker.  From the next tee up, more like 270, and from the back of the big tee up even farther, about 245 yards.

[Adam Clayman]

Archie, The only problem I can see with that elbow bunker, is not the bunker. It's the lack of reward for carrying it.

Why do so many of the east coast courses have this thoughtless meld, on the leeward side of heroic carry bunkers ?

Thanks Joe.

[JESII]

The back tee is another 25 yards longer...this is not a heroic carry bunker, even if 5 people per year can actually carry it. This is designed under the philosophy of putting a bunker exactly where you would ideally want to hit your tee shot.

I can understand Archie having a problem with the "look" and lack of severity of it, but not with its positioning.

[Joe Bausch]

From the middle of the way back tee, it is a 325 yard carry.

[Mark McKeever]

From the middle of the way back tee, it is a 325 yard carry.

At that point, Im just aiming at it and swinging.

Mark

[archie_struthers]

 

Here's the rub ....there are plenty of guys who can carry the  bunker , as it plays downhill and often downwind

I don't like making the bunker harder as it will only discourage people form taking the shorter way home

 in playing the hole , the bunker shot is easier than a shot from the rough , as any shots with top spin will release to the back of the outstanding green.  

also the preferred angle is into the green is from the right side of the fairway , so tempting players to hit it left would be quite good, in fact I'd cut the rough down a little and beg the players to try and shorten the hole , eschewing the better angle

most importantly it ruins a beautiful sightline from tee to green




 

[Rory Connaughton]

It has been a few years since I have been to PCC but my recollection is that the member tees are actually set on the largest tee pad which by Joe's calculation would be a 245 carry.  I also seem to recall that if you play the ball on the right edge of the bunker you get a decent kick forward and to the right which sets up the preferred angle and shortens the approach. Not sure the bunker doesn't achieve what it is intended to achieve.

Of course if my recollections are wrong completely disregard my entire post!

[JESII]

Archie,

I know people play from different tees all the time, but you can hardly criticize a hole, or feature, that doesn't make sense to a scratch player playing from the third set of tees up...in this instance the 270 carry tee.

Curious about the right side being the preferred angle of approach...the slope from left to right takes most balls over there, and that does allow more of a "hit into the slope" advantage on the approach...but it also forces you to hit it over the front-right greenside bunker on your approach. I think I would take a ball a yard from the left rough before one a yard from the right rough to all but the very front left hole location.

I'm happy to agree with short grass immediately over the bunker, I just can't see many people getting it there...admittedly, it's about 10 yards worth downhill from the tee to the fairway.

[Adam Clayman]

Sully, Sometimes we mere humans duff our drive. And then need to try and take the shorter route. 

I've been thinking about our mis-understanding about the desire for the lowest score possible. I can state, we always try to do the same as you, but, it's a different world, if we are honest with ourselves. While I may try to hit shots just for fun, or to avoid trouble (if we're smart), the goal is still to achieve the lowest score, possible.

[JESII]

Adam,

I agree that, on principle, the back side of a corner bunker should be clean, and promote an aggressive play whether it's the first, second or third...but for architectural analysis, this has to be considered a driving zone bunker, no?

I disagree that this is a bunker is misplaced...is it preferred to approach OVER the right greenside bunker? Or along side it? Consider that the slope of the green is towards the bunker...

[RSLivingston_III]

Couple of things,

First, how is that bunker misplaced? It tells you exactly where your drive should be placed for the best approach. (as close as possible to the bunker)

What are the dark patches of grass? Were more bunkers removed?

Regarding Adams comment, why should holes be designed with the duffer in mind? If your not good enough to play the course, go play the flat public "farm" courses until you have the skills to play a challenging course. Thats also why we have different tees, to match the skill level of the player to the challenge level of the course.

[archie_struthers]

 

Sully , having played this hole and thought about it a lot I'm real confident saying the right side angle is much better than the left to approach the green . in that the fairway is canted to the right , a fade is much easier to hit and a high shot works much better here. Unless you are a stone hooker , I can't imagine the left angle is better .   Now if you are good enough to hit a soft high hook into the green slope from the rough , God Bless you , but I haven't seen too many guys who have that shot .

I'm all for removing the bunker and setting up a second from the rough ....don't like the architect to make it so obvious as to the correct way to attack a hole , there ought to be some home court advantage for the dues paying members.  

R.S.   hitting it right next to that bunker is not the best angle    see above

[RSLivingston_III]

Noted. I am at a bit of a disadvantage not having seen the hole, in person.


How close is the design to original design? Any chance of seeing an in era aerial?

What are the dark green grass patches?

[JESII]

Archie,

Any hole right of center is obscured by the greenside bunker if you're at the right edge of the fairway. I understand that the green tilts that way but it would do the same from the left side and you do not have the visual obstruction...maybe we'll figure out a way to prove one of these opinions someday without using bold green ink like Mucci...

[RSLivingston_III]

Along with my other questions,
app. how long is an approach shot if you layup behind the bunker and hit directly in line/over it?

[JESII]

175 - 200 I think Ralph.

[archie_struthers]

 

Nobody has addressed the aesthetics (ick ) of this buker and the beautiful sightline it  \breaks with little or no real stategic value....as played it is easier to hit it out of the bunker than the surrounding rough so why should it stay  ??

I'd love to see the rough removed over the bunker just short of the green   (left)  and make it fast and firm  , now that would be awesome !!!

[Nick Campanelli]

How close is the design to original design? Any chance of seeing an in era aerial?

I don't know anything about Philly CC, but I saw this request for older aerials, and thought I would help out.  These are from 1999 and 1948.  Hope they help.

[archie_struthers]

 


Nice work Nick interesting that they took out one of the right bunkers....in that they are way back I might suggest the other should go tooooooooooo    !!!!!!!

[Nick Campanelli]

Archie,

Now that I'm looking at it closely, I think thats a glitch with historicaerials.com.  Those look like they are the same bunkers.  The top one of the two is the existing?

-Nick