Elbow Bunker that needs to go !!!!

[Jim_Kennedy]

Nick,
It's a glitch, and it stays as you scroll left when 'swiping' a modern aerial over it. 

[Adam Clayman]

Sully, Agreed, it is meant to affect the player while he's on the tee.

Regarding Adams comment, why should holes be designed with the duffer in mind? If your not good enough to play the course, go play the flat public "farm" courses until you have the skills to play a challenging course.

Ralph, I don't believe anyone said anything about designing with the duffer in mind, but since you brought it up, I find that attitude (If I understand you correctly) to be in exceptionally poor taste and an intellectually weak argument, as it pertains to quality gca. Thoughtful design isn't based on a limited ability. Besides, Even the better player hits an errant drive on occasion. Or, at least they use to. You also said something about dues paying members and home court advantage. That too is a most ridiculous attitude to have as it relates to gca. Whether someone has played the course 1000 times, or on their first attempt, the aware golfer should be able to negotiate what's on the ground, with a well thought out and executed strategy.

Archie, No one has commented on the aesthetic, because those of us who are discussing it theoretically, can not see it from the ground view. The aerial tells us nothing about the aesthetic. Although I'll admit, when it was shaped like an elbow, versus the aerial that Joe posted where it looks more Ameba-like, seems more desirable, to me. Besides, it's only opinion. Especially aesthetics! 

[JESII]

Archie,

This bunker has no strategic value? Please explain.

What sightline does it ruin? The bunker is pretty much flat against the ground, what's missing?




Adam,

This hole is a good one to use for discussing our misunderstanding...other than you not having played the hole. I guess I can describe the two primary ways to try to play the hole and see if I understand your position above regarding trying shots and still trying to score as well as possible.

[Adam Clayman]

Jim, Ok I'll bite,

Strictly theoretically, playing the appropriate tees, I still will not carry the ball 245 yards. So, I could try and aim for that bunker, but if the turf is firm, and I hit it straight, I would likely find it, unless the rough in front, would stop my ball from bouncing, or rolling, in it. Now, if I hit my proper fade drive, I should end up in as ideal position as possible, after reading Rory's description of how the slope of the ground will get me to the center, or right center of the fairway.  I assume I'd have over 215 yards, if I'm short of the elbow, and, 180 if I get even, or, ahead of it. From there, my options are to try and hit my slinging hook 4 or 5 iron, likely ending up left side of the green, either short or pin high, but surely past the left front bunker. From 215, I could try to hit my hybrid 1 iron with a fade push, over the front left bunker. If I'm playing smart, I don't try to get on the green in Regulation. When I say don't try, I mean I choose a club that will leave me where I can mange the next shot, from the apron. From the picture, The only place that looks absolutely dead ,is in that right green side bunker, in what appears to be native grasses growing in the bunker.
Since the hole is the 14th, I should have some clue as to what kind of a day I'm having. Hopefully, making the correct choice and execution to avoid the dreaded double or worse.

This is likely the crux in our mis-understanding. Yes, I'm capable of hitting the ball like a 2 handicap, But, I'm also capable of hitting like a 22. The big question I have to ask myself, at this moment in the round, is, what's most likely? The factors that go into that answer are many. Who I'm playing with, and how I'm feeling, are the two that are likely most relevant.

My feeling is our mis understanding is based on our resective expectations. You have much higher ones, than I do. But, I have a better ability to deal with the adversity when things don't go as planned, because I have so much more experience at that. 

Ok, I'm just rambling now, throwing out information for discussion purposes. What's weird is the more I describe, the less I understand our mis-understanding. 

[JESII]

I intended to give my two scenarios and then discuss them but I became distracted...my bad.

The tee shot on this hole is a bit downhill and the yardages look like the green side of the bunker leaves you 155 or 160 to the center of the green.

The short left bunker is 20 yards short of the apron so should allow room to land the ball and bounce on or close to the green. This area may not be prepared quite well enough to really encourage that play, the fairway line could go as far left as the point of the bunker because the terrain slopes pretty good to the right. The dark areas you see in the right bunker are just wash-outs, it's typically just a big bunker, deep and wide...but with no internal grasses. Not a good place to be, but a good bunker player will have no trouble getting it onto the green.

If you need more on what could effect a players decisions let me know.

Now, the two scenarios I see playing out as the basis of our misunderstanding, if in fact there is one, are these...

In my opinion (obviously counter to Archie's), the best angle to approach 90% of the hole locations from is the fairway just to the right of the left bunker. You're higher up so the visual is better and the big greenside bunker is flanking as opposed to blocking. The negative is that if you absolutely have to land it short of the green the left bunker becomes an obstacle...rarely have I played it firm enough that this was the case for anyone not hitting a full wood. To get there you obviously have to flirt with the bunker. If the ground is firm you might even hit a 3 wood so as not to run too far to the right as Rory said.   

The question becomes - how much of an advantage is the "ideal" approach angle on this hole? For me, it's basically never worth the risk of hitting it in that bunker off the tee (Arch must be a better fairway bunker player than me, or a worse fairway player...). The problem I see on the tee shot from the "experimental guys" is that they seemingly would rather try 8 ways to Sunday to figure out how to get it right next to the bunker even if they have no expectation of it offering a reward to compensate for the risk of going in it.

Next, forget how we got there, but our tee shot has ended up in the right center of the fairway at 170 - a really good spot. Because the shot is slightly downhill, I can hit a 7 iron comfortably to the center of the green. The right bunker may scare me because I'm not very good out of the sand but the left rough is clearly the #1 place to avoid because of the left to right slope and fast greens.  Now there's a bit of a sideboard to the left that should kick and feed the ball onto the green.

What I read on here is people using that sideboard simply because it's there, not because it's their best way to make a 4.

Am I misunderstanding the idea?

[archie_struthers]

 


Adam  home court advantage or local knowledge absolutely has merit with architecture.....today I played Bayonne for the second time and understood the angles a little better than the first time, but not as well as  my playing partners or my caddy...although I think my golf course IQ is fairly high (LOL)    There is absolutely no rule that says good architecture should be readily apparent at first blush....if it is it may be quite  quite mundane......which brings me back to the toothless bunker that spoils the sightline on PCC #14

the shortest way home is guarded by the bunker and the bad angle to attack the green .............if the bunker wasn't there more players would be tempted to play it down the left side  which is the wrong angle IMNSHO ...the rough has been long and gnarly (quite healthy) the last ten ten times I've been there ...you can't bounce it in from the left  because of the healthy rough t hat protects the green over the short left bunker




t

[Adam Clayman]

Archie, I did qualify my opinion with "the aware golfer". I suppose my opinion on what Ralph wrote about the advantage of familiarity lies in my belief that knowledge about a hole's features, is the booby prize. Execution, Rub O' green and Karma make all the knowledge moot, once the ball leaves the golfer's club face. Knowing where NOT to miss it, is where the experienced and aware golfer have the same information, albeit gained differently. One is through exposure to this specific hole and the other from recognizing this type of scenario gained from their experience and awareness.

As for PCC's 14.

From Jim's and Rory's descriptions, my impression that both the bunkers on that left side, are very well placed. The fairway elbow bunker appears to be on the line of instinct, but the slope of the terrain, allows a player that flirts with the bunker, to not only gain yardage, because of the downhill, but also achieve the better angle, from the subtle cant to the right. The green side bunker, from Sully's excellent analysis also has that risk reward aspect to it. IMO, it's a pity that there's long rough on the green side of that left bunker. It takes away from the opportunity to risk, which takes away the opportunity to reward. (unless dry and firm which is probably not often, if ever)

I'm glad you mentioned Bayonne. Local knowledge there is essential on many holes. My i.e. was on 16. After finding the right fairway bunker, having 210 yards to the green, I decided to play non-greedily. I chose to play a nice safe 7 iron, figuring to leave me 70-90 yards for my third. Well, Mr. Bergestol's (sp?) design, got me. I was lazy and did not go and look beyond the bunker I was. I assumed there would be fairway ahead. I hit a fine shot that went where and how I wanted it to. Only to find out there's no fairway there. There's wetlands. Many factors went into my poor decision that day. It was Monday, there were no caddies. I was carrying my own bag and I like to play in a timely fashion. No one informed me I had to carry it all or nothing tot he green, all they told me was a yardage. Given these same circumstances again, my choice would be to play out sideways, still leaving me 210-190 for my third. I call it my choice, but in reality, the design forces me to make that choice. Because I can not hit a a fairway bunker shot that far, with any club in the bag, that would get up soon enough to carry that bunker's edge, which block my visual of the wetlands. Believe me, at that moment, I thought it was a horrible design.

Gotta run.

Sully, I think you may be right, we likely don't have a mis-understanding, just different perspectives and attitudes based on ability.

[archie_struthers]

 


Adam enjoy the analysis and discussion even if we don't agree.  Why I can't remember the lack of bailout on Bayonne 16 surprises me , in that I could remember almost all the holes in great detail, which is a good sign and has little to do with my failing memory. Will go to the website later and check it out . 

Pine Valley is probablay the place that I knew best, having watched touring pros of different eras and hackers alike play thousands of shots to the greens.  A really good caddy can definitely help even a great player there, not just with confidence but with strategy as well . As  the green speed and firm and fast conditions are cranked up (Crump Cup conditioning)  understanding the course ramps up dramatically in value.. An excellent local player actually has won the tournament over world class amateurs, an oddity that isn't talked about very often .

Back to PCC  ,  you'll have to trust me that the bunker should go  !!!!

[RSLivingston_III]

Archie, I did qualify my opinion with "the aware golfer". I suppose my opinion on what Ralph wrote about the advantage of familiarity lies in my belief that knowledge about a hole's features, is the booby prize. Execution, Rub O' green and Karma make all the knowledge moot, once the ball leaves the golfer's club face. Knowing where NOT to miss it, is where the experienced and aware golfer have the same information, albeit gained differently. One is through exposure to this specific hole and the other from recognizing this type of scenario gained from their experience and awareness.

Adam
I did make the comment about designing for the duffer, but I have no idea why you think I made the other comment(s). I didn't.
Actually back in the day they did design for the duffer by installing cross bunkering. First to get them to learn to make a proper stroke, and later as a challenge for the less proficient as most hazards were designed to challenge the better player.

[Adam Clayman]

 Archie, I trust you have issues with this particular bunker. I'm just trying to understand why. Naturally I agree with you about knowing a golf course well enough to have insight into the playing of it, and agree that the knowledgable local caddie is a visitors best chance at scoring well, either in part, or, on the whole. The canvas is the medium for the sport and there are only three dimensions. So, a courses secrets are only as complex as how well those dimensions are integrated and organized. An experienced aware golfer is capable of over-coming the difficulties of a canvas they've never seen before, even without a caddie, if they know how to play the shots, form varied lies, anywhere.

In a way, that challenge is probably, sub-conscienely, at the heart of, and what drives, the modern day gca belt notcher, err, I mean sportsman.

Ralph, My mistake. Sorry for the error.
 It's an interesting topic this duffer v. better player. Wasn't part of the problem, of post war II GCA, is that it ended up designing for the lowest common denominator?  There was a fundamental change in the ideal of what a better player was able to do. Shifting from shot maker, to one that consistently hit it straight. Along came irrigation and you can add high, to that criterion.

I suppose, giving the lesser skilled, an avenue to plod, in a way, is designing for a duffer. That would be me, btw. 

[JESII]

Archie,

Is it possible that our disagreement about the ideal angle to approach this 14th green at PCC is based solely on the notion of approaching through the air versus on the ground?

I just can't imagine why you would prefer to be in the right corner of the fairway if your intention was to carry the ball at least to the front edge of the green...at the same time, I'll freely admit that standing in the fairway with a wood or long iron I would like that side simply because I would be hitting away from the big right bunker and the short left one wouldn't be in play as much...

Are we on the same page?

[archie_struthers]

 

James , though old and feeble I'm not bouncing it on with a three wood,  yet !   Definitely looking at it from a high level players attack route , even if I'm not that player.  lol 

Abolutely right center or dead center allow you to play it into the spine that bisects the green and throws everything left to right. That's why I'm into tempting the player to hit it left , and make the second shot shorter but more difficult . Unless you are hitting a wedge in there, you need to hit one pretty high to hold that green . 

Funny the right bunker never comes into my mind's eye playing this hole , and doesn't scare me .  Perhaps my sand game is better than yours as the chip shot from short left bothers me a lot more . 

thats the deal from my perspective ......stay cool  !!

[JESII]

The very fact that the chip from short left is worse than the occassional blast out of the right bunker should be evidence enough that firing in from the right side of the fairway is less than ideal...from the right side of the fairway you have little choice but to aim at the front left corner of the green...no?

[archie_struthers]

 

Hey Jimm we've beat this  puppy to death so we'll have to pick a day and go hit some shots to the geen from the respective spots . We'll get clearance if possible and have at it  ....stay cool  !

archie

[JESII]

Deal

later...