News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Wade Whitehead

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was innovative about Tobacco Road?
« Reply #50 on: November 12, 2010, 08:34:52 PM »
Some great courses make you laugh; some make you cry.  Tobacco Road does both.

WW

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: What was innovative about Tobacco Road?
« Reply #51 on: November 13, 2010, 10:31:44 AM »
I am not sure it counts as "innovative" but I think the most striking feature of the course (and all of Mike Strantz's work) is that so many of the features are driven by visual considerations and less by the golf, starting right with that first tee shot, which is designed to get everyone out of their comfort zones.

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was innovative about Tobacco Road?
« Reply #52 on: November 13, 2010, 12:37:42 PM »
I am not sure it counts as "innovative" but I think the most striking feature of the course (and all of Mike Strantz's work) is that so many of the features are driven by visual considerations and less by the golf, starting right with that first tee shot, which is designed to get everyone out of their comfort zones.

I may be interpreting this differently than you intended, but the way that was written gives the impression that there is some "trade-off" involved or that "visual considerations" are somehow separate from "golf considerations."  In my opinion, the visual is an integral part of golf, especially when it plays up the mental aspects of the game.

When you wrote that, did you mean his features focused more on "mental challenges" vs. "physical challenges?"  If that's what you meant, then I would wholeheartedly agree.

But is that necessarily innovative?  I wrote an article about Strantz where I referred to him as the "Old School" Maverick.  His creations seem shocking and cutting edge, but he attributes many of his influences to the Old School philosophies of MacKenzie (e.g. “Look hard, play easy”).  The fact that Strantz plays up the mental challenges of blind shots and in-your-face visual intimidation illustrates the MacKenzie influence he wrote about.  Perhaps why Tobacco Road is so memorable isn’t necessarily the “innovation”, but the extent to which visual intimidation is used.

In my book, I much prefer the excitement of additional mental challenges as opposed to increased physical challenges (courses featuring 3-4 Par Threes over 200 yards are a scourge, IMO).  In the Tobacco Road Clubhouse, there is a Treatise posted on the virtue of Blind Shots (lifted from St. Andrews), including the mental stress it provides to the first time visitor, the variety it provides to repeat players, and the thrill that comes from the “reveal” after navigating a blind approach (the climb up to the 13th green is always filled with excited anticipation).  Again, his “Old School” influence is ironically viewed by some as avant-garde.

I think a number of Strantz’s critics are sometimes too quick to dismiss the features as “eye-candy” without proper consideration given to the intended strategic influences.  Tot Hill’s 5th green was held up in a recent thread as an example, in which many of the initial reactions were based solely on the “appearance” of the green, without due consideration of how it played into the remainder of the hole and provided a variety of strategic options.

Now, could it be argued that Strantz may have gone a little too far in the balance between “mental” and “physical” challenges?  I can certainly understand that perspective, especially at Tobacco Road.  I think a low-handicapper should be able to score very low at TR, as the visual obstacles are easily overcome with a confident swing.  However, for the other 95% of us, the scary-looking challenges and occasional triumphs over an intimidating-looking foe make Tobacco Road a thrill.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: What was innovative about Tobacco Road?
« Reply #53 on: November 13, 2010, 01:10:57 PM »
Kevin,

I guess what I meant to say is that Mike is one of the only architects I can think of whose #1 goal seemed to be to create holes that looked cool.

I agree with you that good golf and good visuals tend to go together.  The trade-off is that the scale Mike worked at sometimes handicapped his ability to include cool short-game features, because the scale of them did not match the scale of everything else.  So, he could build some features reminiscent of the 3rd or 15th or 17th at Prestwick, which hardly any other modern designer has ever done.  But he never built a green as cool as the 13th at Prestwick, or a hole as "plain" as the 18th.

Some of my favorite holes at Tobacco Road are some of the plainest ones, such as the tenth, which still has more going on than any Rees Jones hole I can think of. 

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was innovative about Tobacco Road?
« Reply #54 on: November 13, 2010, 02:40:53 PM »
Tom,

Thanks for clarifying your comment.  I like the beauty and flow of Mike's designs - you really begin to recognize his "style" after playing multiple courses.  I guess the judgement comes down to whether you feel these features were "supplementary" to good strategic design or were masking some deficiencies.  In most cases, I don't think he sacrificed too much in playability to look "cool," but I would agree that he may have crossed that line he was flirting with in some cases (#2 at RNK comes to mind).

Thanks also for discussiong the "scale" trade-off you envisioned.  I'm not immediately familiar with the Prestwick references you mentioned, but that's why I'm on this board - to expand my knowledge.  Thanks to your feedback, I'll be researching your references and incorporating it into my overall consideration of Strantz' work.

I understand what you mean about the 10th hole.  Relative to everything surrounding it, the hole risks being viewed as "plain", but there is quite a bit going on.  Funny you should mention Rees relative to Strantz - one of my trips this summer was to Williamsburg, and going from RNK to Golden Horseshoe Green was pretty jarring (Unforunately, "didn't we play this hole already?" was overheard several times).

Mike Hamilton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was innovative about Tobacco Road?
« Reply #55 on: November 13, 2010, 03:48:36 PM »
While a fan of Strantz (and living in the Richmond area fortunate to have quick access to RNK and SH and not too far from TR or THF), Tom's point regarding looking cool versus the golf is valid and maybe the best spot on critcism I've read.  Some holes that come to mind are the #1 at TR as mentioned, as well as the tee shots on #1, #5, and #10 at RNK.  

I think #2 at RNK compared to #11 at TR are also good examples of how maybe the golf could have been better...obviously the intent was the risk/reward of the fishhook design, but I think the distance to the green on RNK #2 make it almost too diffucult and angles and carry distances of the layup route make it no bargain either.  Conversely, TR #11 seems too easy.

Nonetheless, as Kevin notes, TR is a fun play, and the visuals are still pretty cool (at least for some of us) and while I personally think that while RNK as more flaws overall (esp the housing on the back and the last few holes), the golf in stretches is better than any of his other work and it's a great course for an occasional round and to muse about what Strantz might have done...

Another note regarding Mackenzie and look hard play easy.  I think most of TR and some of RNK play easier than they look (although less so at RNK which can be a beast depending on your tee choice).  My only experience with Mackenzie is Pasatiempo, which I felt looks a lot easier at first glance than either TR/RNK, but plays pretty tough.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2010, 03:52:44 PM by Mike Hamilton »

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was innovative about Tobacco Road?
« Reply #56 on: November 14, 2010, 11:05:34 AM »
 8)  in support of visualization, how the mind's eye translates to reality






I'll note that the TR layout print doesn't seem to be available anymore at the Mike Strantz Art Gallery.. Everyone should consider supporting them.. see  http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42729.msg918662/topicseen/

« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 11:13:52 AM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was innovative about Tobacco Road?
« Reply #57 on: November 15, 2010, 03:24:41 PM »
While a fan of Strantz (and living in the Richmond area fortunate to have quick access to RNK and SH and not too far from TR or THF), Tom's point regarding looking cool versus the golf is valid and maybe the best spot on critcism I've read.  Some holes that come to mind are the #1 at TR as mentioned, as well as the tee shots on #1, #5, and #10 at RNK.  

I think #2 at RNK compared to #11 at TR are also good examples of how maybe the golf could have been better...obviously the intent was the risk/reward of the fishhook design, but I think the distance to the green on RNK #2 make it almost too diffucult and angles and carry distances of the layup route make it no bargain either.  Conversely, TR #11 seems too easy.

Nonetheless, as Kevin notes, TR is a fun play, and the visuals are still pretty cool (at least for some of us) and while I personally think that while RNK as more flaws overall (esp the housing on the back and the last few holes), the golf in stretches is better than any of his other work and it's a great course for an occasional round and to muse about what Strantz might have done...

Another note regarding Mackenzie and look hard play easy.  I think most of TR and some of RNK play easier than they look (although less so at RNK which can be a beast depending on your tee choice).  My only experience with Mackenzie is Pasatiempo, which I felt looks a lot easier at first glance than either TR/RNK, but plays pretty tough.

I’ve been ruminating on this issue for several days now – sorry in advance for the length.
***************

Mike –
I guess I still don’t believe there is a mutual exclusivity between “cool-looking” and “good golf” that you can use as a basis for criticizing Strantz’ work.  I have no doubt that Strantz placed more emphasis on the aesthetics than most other GCAs, but I don’t think that he was willing to put that “above” the Golf Strategy (at least not intentionally).  (Having said that, I think there is some validity to Tom Doak’s assessment of the inherent limitations given the scale of Mike’s designs).

Of course Strantz missed on a few holes.  I agree completely with your assessment of RNK #2 – I hit a near-perfect drive just on the right edge of the fairway, and was disappointed by the options presented while there.  The depth of the green was not receptive to the challenge presented, and the troubles both short and long were a bit much. 

However, would I necessarily pin that mistake on Mike trying too hard to make the hole look “cool”?  Or could it simply be that it was a mistake where the designer may have asked too much of the Golfer? 

Put another way, I think all GCAs have probably made mistakes on certain risk/reward options over the course of their designs, even on holes where they weren’t trying to “look cool.” It seems like critics try to attribute the mistakes on Strantz’ courses to his “aesthetic emphasis,” which I think improperly furthers a notion that there is a trade-off between the two.  All GCAs make occasional mistakes, but I think it is improper to attribute these to some type of “aesthetics-first” sacrifice.

In the case of RNK #2, that hole could have been done better with some slight changes, and still looked pretty cool.  To some extent, I think that is what happened at Tobacco Road’s 11th.  My biggest problem with RNK #2 was the severity of the punishment for coming up just short. It was essentially “lost-ball” requiring a re-load.  The punishment of hitting out of a 30 foot bunker was a perfect trade-off at TR, and some other type of “non-lost ball” hazard at RNK would have improved the hole immensely.

Regarding the other tee shots you have mentioned (#1 at TR, #1,5,10 at RNK), I’m not sure what the problem is from a golf-design standpoint.  At TR #1, I think the mounds have a very specific golf-design purpose beyond just “looking cool.”  Playing from the appropriate tee, these mounds should not affect an average drive and are meant to “look hard, play easy,” accentuating the mental aspects of the game.

As for RNK flaws, I can’t pin the housing on Mike.  I threw up in my mouth when I saw the before and after photos of the Back 9 (someone should be charged with a crime for what happened to 11-13).  But I would agree that some of the holes were a bit much.
 
However, what I think happened between the design of RNK and Tobacco Road was a sort of evolution in design philosophy from Strantz.  At his earlier designs (RNK/Stonehouse), I think the visual intimidation / aesthetics was added on top of some pretty demanding shot requirements, with some of the demands being a bit much (e.g. RNK #2 second shot or the approach on RNK #18).  At later designs such as Tobacco Road and Tot Hill Farm, I think Mike utilized the visual hazards more as a primary defense and lowered the physical demands somewhat (which led to a better balance in my opinion).

I don’t think the flaws at RNK were due to his emphasis of aesthetics.  Rather, they  may have been attributed to an undue emphasis on difficulty and length (which MANY GCAs have succumbed to).  If anything, I think his emphasis on aesthetics / blind shots as a mental obstacle at Tobacco Road (while reducing the obsession with overly demanding shots) was the innovation that should be remembered.  The fact that Tobacco Road has a higher slope rating than RNK is absolutely comical to me.

I find it funny that Tobacco Road seems to be the lightning-rod of criticism for his work, because I think the improvements he made there were remarkable.  When I played his Williamsburg area works, I found them unrelenting physically, with the aesthetics being a nice “door prize” while getting my ego thrashed.  In the Pinehurst area, I had a great time facing the mental intimidation, but I wasn’t over-powered physically, leading to much more enjoyable experiences.  In some ways, this increases the tragedy of his passing, as I can only ponder what other design evolutions may have occurred with more experience.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was innovative about Tobacco Road?
« Reply #58 on: November 15, 2010, 05:07:51 PM »
Holy moly, if The Road isn't innovative, what is? 

Ciao

Thanks, Sean.  That is EXACTLY how I feel.  It is certainly the most innovative course I've ever seen, and to whatever extent TR isn't innovative, there won't be any other innovative courses built.  Of course each of the features found at TR can be found other places, but is there any other SINGLE place that puts so many things together so differently?

I don't think TR is a perfect golf course by any means, and I understand why it is left off so many Top 100 lists.  But innovative?  Yes, and then some.

Also, I'm not sure why so many of you consider the site to be so poorly suited for golf, other than the fact that it used to be a sand quarry for an asphalt plant.  Enlighten, please.

AG

I don't think the site is poor, but a road cutting through it and the factory aren't ideal. 

Kevin

While I have no way of knowing if Strantz sacrificed quality golf for cool looking golf, the routing is certainly a bit jerky.  The road crossover, long walk from 8 to 10, awkward placement of the 1st in relation to the clubhouse, the walk along the road between 13 & 14 and several not long walks, but irritating (imo) walks to boot.  I don't know if Strantz could have made a tighter routing by giving up some wow factor, but I do wonder, especially after playing Bulls Bay.

Below is a wonderful description of TR which sums the place up perfectly.Its sad that the Brian Gracely, the author, no longer participates on this site - I defintely connected with him in things concerning golf.   


Golf does alot of different things for people, and different people enjoy different aspects of the game.  Maybe it's the thrill of a new course, the competition within your group, the chance to match your game against historical context, the mental challenge of thinking your way around a strategic course or just the element of being out with nature.  But one thing I think we often forget to completely embrace is the pure fun of certain types of shots and the fun of seeing what happens as a result of certain shots or holes. 

The weather in NC was nice enough today that a few GCA'ers decided to make a trip down to Tobacco Road.  Some of us had played the course before, and some were first-timers. 

The thing about Tobacco Road is that it elicits so many emotions from people, from awe to amazement to frustration to confusion to disbelief to excitement.  But today the overwhelming aspect of the round was "fun".  For all its faults, and Tobacco Road is not without its faults, the course just has a bunch of really fun shots.  Some of them are risk-reward, such as the carry over the quarries on #4, 11 and 18.  Some are skillfully challenging, such as the short approaches to #13, 14 and 16.  And some are just plain fun to walk up to the green and see how the ball bounced, rolled or settled after an approach that had you thinking about 10 different things. 

As a group we played respectable, had an eagle and a few birides and plenty of pars, but we also had a shank and some foozzles and skankers.  But at the end of the round, the thing that brought the most excitement for me was one of the first-timers claim that they had to laugh 4-5 times on the back nine because the shots were just so much fun. 

And that's what ultimately makes Tobacco Road great.  It's fun.  It's fun because it rewards great shots, but it's also fun because it tells you, "come on, let's see you hit that shot that you used to hit as a kid before you started thinking too much on the golf course". 

So if you're down in the area, make it a point to go play Tobacco Road.  Ignore its minor faults, and enjoy it for the fun it can be. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was innovative about Tobacco Road?
« Reply #59 on: November 15, 2010, 05:36:38 PM »
Sean,

I certainly can't argue with you on the routing issues, except to say that Tobacco Road may have been the most "intimate" of the 4 Strantz Courses I have played (THF, SH, RNK).  The joke we had at RNK & Stonehouse was that we hoped we didn't run out gas before the end of the round.  At least at THF & TR, after the long trek on the cart path, you would arrive at a "series" of holes with nice routing (e.g. after the 1/3 mile drive from 15th green to 16 tee at THF, the last 3 holes played as a connected series).  At RNK & SH, it seemed like you would often drive 1/3 mile to play one isolated hole, then do it again).  I could easily see myself walking Tobacco Road, but never RNK or SH (and I walk some pretty hilly courses in upstate NY). 

Brian's summary is pretty accurate - and the whole comment of hitting the ball "like you used to before you started thinking too much" is dead-on to this 40 year-old golfer.

No matter what, Tobacco Road leaves a strong impression, which is praise alone.  And if you want real fun at TR, you can do what my group did this year.  After playing 18 on our own ball, we played matches of 2-Man Scrambles.  Plenty of opportunities to be had in that format at the Road.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was innovative about Tobacco Road?
« Reply #60 on: November 15, 2010, 05:51:47 PM »
Kevin

You are preaching to the choir.  I am ALWAYS happy to head down to The Road for a game when in nearby Raleigh - if they keep the prices reasonable - which unfortunately they didn't on my last visit so I skipped it.  It turns out every time I played previously it was on a discounted rate - never knew that.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was innovative about Tobacco Road?
« Reply #61 on: November 15, 2010, 06:00:39 PM »
i keep seeing this thread and can't help but wonder why it was posted?????????

Everything about Tobacco Road is innovative, so why the thread????

Strantz thought outside the box and this course is a tribute to his genius

Any more questions?????????????/
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was innovative about Tobacco Road?
« Reply #62 on: November 15, 2010, 07:39:45 PM »
Kevin Lynch
Very good post.  I, too, have been "ruminating" about the issue of "cool-looking" and "good golf" as it pertains to TR specifically and Strantz in general. 

I agree with you; I have never once had the feeling on any of the Strantz courses that I've played that there was ANY sacrifice of the quality of golf.  In fact, quite the opposite.  I've felt from the first play at TR shortly after it opened that Strantz courses test the golfer in a unique way; you are shown a line for a shot that APPEARS to be much harder than it is.  If you will commit and execute, the courses are not exceptionally difficult tee to green.  But what a blast to play!

I also disagree with Tom Doak about the challenge of the greens and the complexity of the shots you have to play around those greens on Strantz courses.  They are the equal of anything I've seen by any other GCA that I've been able to compare adequately, and far, far more interesting than most.

I've already detailed the reasons that I think TR often misses Top 100 lists, and they are valid reasons.  But they are NOT about the quality of the golf itself.  By contrast, Caledonia and True Blue make many Top 100 lists, and they are if anything underrated IMO.  Tot Hill is a special case in that is NOT a great site, though it is a superior golf course under the limitations of the site.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Brian Marion

Re: What was innovative about Tobacco Road?
« Reply #63 on: November 15, 2010, 09:02:36 PM »
Playing TBR this past Friday, I kept some of the above comments and ideas in the back of my head as I went 'round. Mind, you, I am a player first and an armchair architect an extremely distant second.

In my group were two first timers to TBR, one a solid 3-4 whose game I know very well as he is a good friend. The other gentlemen would normally play to around a 12 I would guess at his home course though I'm not certain as he was a single playing with our group. My other friend is a solid 7-8 handicap and has played TBR 8 times or more over the years.

Interesting the comments from my low handicap friend, he wanted to know where to hit it and distance, no more no less really. His main comments on each tee or fairway were, "Holy S**t, each time something new was revealed. He loved the course, it's look, it's feel, it's size and depth. Btw, he shot a 68 by hitting fairways and greens and keeping the ball in play!!!!! My other friend shot a solid 77.

The higher handicap only wanted to hit driver and struggled mightily when out of position. He always seemed to be biting off way more than he could chew both from the tee, from the fairway and from the bunkers. Every shot he hit, he tried the hero shot, not the solid golf shot that would reward good play.

One of the most innovative aspects of the layout not mentioned so far became apparent on the drive in. Strantz routed the main road and almost every cart path, so that golfers get small glimpses of things to come. Think of the ride into the property,.... up the hill and down to one fairway...., plus many others. Each hole revealing itself both before you actually play it and while you are on it. I was also struck with how TBR is routed on a fairly small piece of property, yet I am always saying "I didn't know that hole was right there!"

Case in point, number 11. Finish 10 and you don't get a view of the 11th until you really climb the hill to the tee (though you did get a sneak peak when you played 2! and when you warned up on the range, did you notice?). Then, from the tee the hole is only half revealed, just enough to tell you where to go, and where not to! Once you're on the cart path and enter the fairway, you get a beautiful unveiling of the huge bunker and your next shot decision by riding up the steep hill that blocks your view of the bunker and green. Awesome.

My only sad note to TBR is that after playing the course for many years now, it seems to have become a "notch" in many golfers belts. I got the feeling that the course has become something bordering on novelty for many who come to play, what to them seems to be a grown up version of putt-putt, with no understanding of Strantz or his body of work. I felt this in the groups in front of and around us and in the staff of marshalls that I encountered on Friday who were just pushing groups along and who I feel have no knowledge of the course or it origins. I do remember the day when this wasn't so. It sort of made me sad and a bit nostalgic for the days not many years ago when TBR was a weird little course in a town no one had ever heard of, near my Aunt's house!




Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was innovative about Tobacco Road?
« Reply #64 on: November 15, 2010, 10:16:33 PM »
It is an unpredictable golf experience. On my scale of 1-18, where I rate a course based on which hole I would be satisfied leaving — the course gets an 18. Simply put, I was enthralled with each hole, what came next and the surprises along the way. Mike created 18 very different worlds, yet brought them together in a whole course.

The above description — sadly — doesn't fit too many courses built in the past 40 years.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was innovative about Tobacco Road?
« Reply #65 on: November 16, 2010, 06:15:52 AM »
It is an unpredictable golf experience. On my scale of 1-18, where I rate a course based on which hole I would be satisfied leaving — the course gets an 18. Simply put, I was enthralled with each hole, what came next and the surprises along the way. Mike created 18 very different worlds, yet brought them together in a whole course.

The above description — sadly — doesn't fit too many courses built in the past 40 years.

Perfect.  Thanks.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Mike Hamilton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What was innovative about Tobacco Road?
« Reply #66 on: November 16, 2010, 03:50:25 PM »
While a fan of Strantz (and living in the Richmond area fortunate to have quick access to RNK and SH and not too far from TR or THF), Tom's point regarding looking cool versus the golf is valid and maybe the best spot on critcism I've read.  Some holes that come to mind are the #1 at TR as mentioned, as well as the tee shots on #1, #5, and #10 at RNK.  

I think #2 at RNK compared to #11 at TR are also good examples of how maybe the golf could have been better...obviously the intent was the risk/reward of the fishhook design, but I think the distance to the green on RNK #2 make it almost too diffucult and angles and carry distances of the layup route make it no bargain either.  Conversely, TR #11 seems too easy.

Nonetheless, as Kevin notes, TR is a fun play, and the visuals are still pretty cool (at least for some of us) and while I personally think that while RNK as more flaws overall (esp the housing on the back and the last few holes), the golf in stretches is better than any of his other work and it's a great course for an occasional round and to muse about what Strantz might have done...

Another note regarding Mackenzie and look hard play easy.  I think most of TR and some of RNK play easier than they look (although less so at RNK which can be a beast depending on your tee choice).  My only experience with Mackenzie is Pasatiempo, which I felt looks a lot easier at first glance than either TR/RNK, but plays pretty tough.

I’ve been ruminating on this issue for several days now – sorry in advance for the length.
***************

Mike –
I guess I still don’t believe there is a mutual exclusivity between “cool-looking” and “good golf” that you can use as a basis for criticizing Strantz’ work.  I have no doubt that Strantz placed more emphasis on the aesthetics than most other GCAs, but I don’t think that he was willing to put that “above” the Golf Strategy (at least not intentionally).  (Having said that, I think there is some validity to Tom Doak’s assessment of the inherent limitations given the scale of Mike’s designs).

Of course Strantz missed on a few holes.  I agree completely with your assessment of RNK #2 – I hit a near-perfect drive just on the right edge of the fairway, and was disappointed by the options presented while there.  The depth of the green was not receptive to the challenge presented, and the troubles both short and long were a bit much. 

However, would I necessarily pin that mistake on Mike trying too hard to make the hole look “cool”?  Or could it simply be that it was a mistake where the designer may have asked too much of the Golfer? 

Put another way, I think all GCAs have probably made mistakes on certain risk/reward options over the course of their designs, even on holes where they weren’t trying to “look cool.” It seems like critics try to attribute the mistakes on Strantz’ courses to his “aesthetic emphasis,” which I think improperly furthers a notion that there is a trade-off between the two.  All GCAs make occasional mistakes, but I think it is improper to attribute these to some type of “aesthetics-first” sacrifice.

In the case of RNK #2, that hole could have been done better with some slight changes, and still looked pretty cool.  To some extent, I think that is what happened at Tobacco Road’s 11th.  My biggest problem with RNK #2 was the severity of the punishment for coming up just short. It was essentially “lost-ball” requiring a re-load.  The punishment of hitting out of a 30 foot bunker was a perfect trade-off at TR, and some other type of “non-lost ball” hazard at RNK would have improved the hole immensely.

Regarding the other tee shots you have mentioned (#1 at TR, #1,5,10 at RNK), I’m not sure what the problem is from a golf-design standpoint.  At TR #1, I think the mounds have a very specific golf-design purpose beyond just “looking cool.”  Playing from the appropriate tee, these mounds should not affect an average drive and are meant to “look hard, play easy,” accentuating the mental aspects of the game.

As for RNK flaws, I can’t pin the housing on Mike.  I threw up in my mouth when I saw the before and after photos of the Back 9 (someone should be charged with a crime for what happened to 11-13).  But I would agree that some of the holes were a bit much.
 
However, what I think happened between the design of RNK and Tobacco Road was a sort of evolution in design philosophy from Strantz.  At his earlier designs (RNK/Stonehouse), I think the visual intimidation / aesthetics was added on top of some pretty demanding shot requirements, with some of the demands being a bit much (e.g. RNK #2 second shot or the approach on RNK #18).  At later designs such as Tobacco Road and Tot Hill Farm, I think Mike utilized the visual hazards more as a primary defense and lowered the physical demands somewhat (which led to a better balance in my opinion).

I don’t think the flaws at RNK were due to his emphasis of aesthetics.  Rather, they  may have been attributed to an undue emphasis on difficulty and length (which MANY GCAs have succumbed to).  If anything, I think his emphasis on aesthetics / blind shots as a mental obstacle at Tobacco Road (while reducing the obsession with overly demanding shots) was the innovation that should be remembered.  The fact that Tobacco Road has a higher slope rating than RNK is absolutely comical to me.

I find it funny that Tobacco Road seems to be the lightning-rod of criticism for his work, because I think the improvements he made there were remarkable.  When I played his Williamsburg area works, I found them unrelenting physically, with the aesthetics being a nice “door prize” while getting my ego thrashed.  In the Pinehurst area, I had a great time facing the mental intimidation, but I wasn’t over-powered physically, leading to much more enjoyable experiences.  In some ways, this increases the tragedy of his passing, as I can only ponder what other design evolutions may have occurred with more experience.


Kevin,

Just to clarify....my comment maybe should have been, of all the criticism I've read of Strantz/TR, I think Tom's is most appropriate.  His work has flaws, and I think its possible in a few cases that those flaws were the product of at least boldness versus good golf and as you note, not necessarily intentionally, just possibly a by product.  I think the boldness for the most part was worth it at the end of the day and I also agree that TR was a nice step forward in resolving some of the negatives of RNK.

I've played all the public Strantz courses in VA/NC/SC except True Blue, have enjoyed them all, will continue to play them and feel that golf is far better off around here thanks to Mike.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back