[Tom ORourke]

I am a member at a 9 hole course that is being redone at the rate one hole per year by Kelly Moran. He has done a great job of bringing movement and strategy to what were once straight holes. We are in the final stages with changes being made that involve cutting down some trees. You all know how some members feel about trees. Our membership is a fairly old one and that has brought up another factor. They feel that some of the changes are making the course more difficult and they don't like that either. The combination of harder shots plus the tree removal has many of the members upset. I believe they are missing the concept of making the best holes you can, as opposed to making easy holes with pretty trees. I am seeing a disconnect between the lower handicap golfers and the older, and female, golfers. One of the new holes that Kelly has designed is a dogleg left 400 yard par 4. Currently the left rough has a large tree around 280 yards from the tee. Kelly does not plan on having the tree there as it would be dead in play for both good tee shots and second shots. The weaker players are lobbying for the tree to be left there. They do not hit tee shots long enough for the tree to be in play, and plan on laying up short of the green anyway and getting on in three. It would be a brutally bad hole if that were to happen. My question to the group is  - what do you do with members who hire you, agree to a master plan without paying enough attention, and then think they can design the holes better than you? Do you just come out one evening and cut down the tree? Do you listen to people who have no idea how a good golf hole should play? And what if the loudest critic is the president of the club, a guy who thinks he has the right to decide the final look? Don't bother talking about the way our board has not stepped up. That is another matter. How do you deal with guys who tell you to build the hole you designed and then start telling you to change it because they don't like it? How much listening do you owe to the members? If you are wondering about my stance on this, I am praying for one good lightning bolt.

[John_Conley]

Tom, I hope Dr. Klein weighs in.  I know he has spoken to memberships about this.

Your post reminds me of a guy I used to caddy for when I was younger.  The course was seeing more rounds, so the Supe decided to have more flexibility in where tee markers were set to reduce foot traffic.  In explaining why he was strong against it, this member's argument centered around the fact that on one hole he couldn't carry his drive to a flat, losing yardage as a result as it landed into a hill.  Then he couldn't reach the green in two.  (It is a short par 4 and the member in question hit it nowhere.)

So basically his blanket statement that something necessary (to preserve turf quality) was bad was because of how one member (him) played one hole.

Hard to design a course for a guy that insists he has to reach the holes in regulation, carries it only about 170, and refuses to play a forward tee configuration.

Good luck with the tree and good luck with the members.

[Mike Nuzzo]

It is up to the membership.
They can't possibly see everything in Kelly's head when the plan gets approved - especially at the rate of one hole a year.
Kelly is going to get some new and better ideas too.

I would think his goal would be to make the holes more interesting not better - unless he was hired to make it harder.
Or to make the whole course more interesting and more playable.
Some holes get easier some get harder.

The tree seems to disadvantage only the longer player - hard to say without a sketch though.

Good luck.

If you cut down the tree Kelly won't get fired.
If he cuts it down he may.

Cheers

[mike_beene]

like several other Ralph Plummer courses, Lakewood had a tree in the middle of a fairway. when Coore  and Crenshaw showed up a bolt of lightning struck and killed the tree.It had to be cut down quickly for safety reasons.No reason to leave the evidence around where someone might misinterpret.

[Randy Thompson]

You can please some of the people some of the time but not all the people all the time. All country clubs have this problem and almost all supers and archies have to deal with this and understand this. Your club is in great hands, I am sure Kelly will do everything possible to communicate and educate all those involved and if he fails he wonīt be the first or the last. I am presntly in a battle to have my company name removed from a project about to go under construction. Design was accepted and than we were asked a year later to re-do the design using half the dirt, in my opinion the overall design dropped from a nine to a seven. Now they want bunkers elimnated by half, single row irrigation system, ect. I would rather they go with push up greens and Bermuda than lose the design strategy related to the bunkering. Also have lost two other projects in the last year, one small and one medium where I donīt think I had the owners convienced to trust me or allow me to do a certain minimum quality final product. so I walked. Hard to stand firms in these trying times but in my opinion if your in this business for the money, your probably working in another field by now.

[Brian Phillips]

Trees are a fluky and obnoxious hazard - Harry Colt

&

Trees and shrubbery beautify the course, and natural growth should never be cut down if it is possible to save it; but he who insists on preserving a tree where it spoils a shot should have nothing to say about golf course construction - George C. Thomas Jr.

&

....as fond as you and I are of them, we sill must not lose sight of the fact there is a limited place for them in golf. - Donald Ross

& one of my modern favourites

If in doubt, take it out! - Dave Thomas

[Mike_Young]

Six copper nails around the base of the tree and it will die in a few months.....no one will ever know...and also

Never ever argue with an idiot (board)  because they will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience....

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