[Matt_Ward]

Jerry:

Thanks.

There are other very exclusive clubs throughout the USA but Four Streams being so close to DC is often not known by many once you go outside a 50-mile radius so little is mentioned.

I'm fortunate to have played it not long after it opened.

I can understand why other members from other local club would have it as a "second" club.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Matt:  What is interesting is that it has an 18th hole with a hidden green similar to that at Dismal River which had caused a great deal of discussion.  Personally, I was not a fan of the 18th at DR and I am not a fan of the 18th at FS. However, FS is still to me a really good course with some fine holes and great conditioning.  For a long time I drove all the way out there to take lessons from their teaching pro, Steve Bosdosh.   In fact, I had seriously considered membership but I needed a place where I could play with my kids.  

Jerry, 18 is an interesting hole.  It really is a second shot par five.  If you don't hit a good second shot you will be left with a blind third shot to the green.  The former owner originally disliked the hole until Smyers explained that too many par fives have pretty boring first two shots.  On 18 the tee shot is benign.  The fairway is pretty wide of the tee, but it does set up the second shot.  Big hitters can get home in two, but it better be hit to the correct spot or the swales in front will repel it. I think it is fun hole.  Play well and 4 can be had but 6 is just around the corner.

[Matt_Ward]

Tommy:

Do you think the 18th could be played from a far forward tee as a long par-4 ?

Don't misunderstand me -- I am not saying I dislike the hole as a par-5 now.

[TEPaul]

That is a good course and it's fun and interesting, challenging and pretty varietal to play. It does exhibit some of what Steve Smyers is basically known for----large-scale bunkering schemes.

We played the two day so-called Mason-Dixon Matches (Golf Association of Philadelphia against the Mid-Atlantic Golf Association) there some years ago. I'm trying to think how long ago that was. I can't put a year on it unless someone can remember when it was that the DC area was under that alert when those two men were shooting and killing people with rifles from long range.

I remember that because it made for a pretty bizarre drive for me down from Philadelphia on those highways and Interstates not knowing if or when someone might take a shot at me.  

But I agree, Four Streams is good course and should probably get more recognition.

[Jerry Kluger]

Tommy: Perhaps I am a cynical person by nature but I would speculate that the 18th is a par 5 for two reasons: they needed a par 5 on the back nine and it is parallel to the 9th which is a long uphill par 4 and the 18th hole would too similar as a par 4. If you are walking the course there is a long walk from the 17th green to the 18th tee and you are now facing a long uphill walk on 18.  You hit two shots and say you're back a ways because you haven't hit two really good shots and have to walk up that hill to see where the hole is and if the group ahead has cleared - that's no fun.(It is probable however that you will be able to see them walking up the hill to the clubhouse.)  Once you are on the green you are standing there a little nervous that someone from the group behind you is going for it in two and hits the downslope and the ball comes flying on to the green.  If you have a blind shot into a par 4 I would think that you would be hitting a club which is probably more accurate than the club you would be hitting when trying to hit a par 5 in two - if you cannot see it land and there are slopes over the hill and around the green there can be a real problem finding the ball if it is not out in the open and it's no fun walking back over and down the hill if you don't find your ball.   

[Carl Nichols]

TEPaul:
I think it was 2002.  No lines at the gas stations that October!

[Tommy Williamsen]

Matt, I don't think 18 would work as a par four, unless they moved the green to higher ground.  The blind shot into the green, even if they moved the tees up would be pretty extreme.

Jerry, there is some truth about wanting it to be a par 5.  However, as I understand it, the original plans had the tee box on the 17th hole side of the little stream.  That would have made the hole very different from the one we have now.  It could have been a much more exciting tee shot than the one we have now. The DNR did not let that happen, hence the long walk to the tee and a tee shot that inspires little fear or thought.

[Matt_Ward]

The discussion on Four Streams just proves how little time is spent on other courses beyond the tried and true usual suspects.

Place FS in plenty of other states and it would likely stand out much more than what it is doing now.

This has been an interesting discussion -- my brother lives in the Arlington area -- along with my Mom who is 90 -- and I plan on being at the '11 Open at Congressional. A return round is certainly something I might plan on doing.

Thanks to all for the detailed info.

[Paul Carey]

The second shot on 18 is a very interesting and challenging shot whether you are attempting to hit the green in two or laying up.  If attempting to reach in two shots you must play down the left side and try to get a good bounce to the green.  If the shot is pulled you end up in some rough with about a thirty yard shot down the hill to a normally slick green.  If you push the shot or don't carry it all the way down the hill the ball will carom short right of the green to an area that is fairway.  However the shot from the short grass is very difficult to a green above you by about 4-5 feet.  Many shots are tried from putter to lob wedge and all require great execution.  For a reachable par five with a bunker that is rarely in play a shot that misses the green results in a demanding third.

Laying up on your second again creates a decision.  The best place to layup is about a hundred yards short of the green on the right side which requires you to flirt with a bunker and if you hit your shot too long it can tumble down a hill into the rough.  From there it is a simple 100 yard pitch from a great vantage point.  If you play straight down the fairway at the hole the lie is on a down slope or side slope in the fairway creating a very awkward shot. 

This is a hoe that grows on you and the blindness of the second (if you are attempting to hit the green) is one of the strategic attributes.

Paul

Matt, I don't think 18 would work as a par four, unless they moved the green to higher ground.  The blind shot into the green, even if they moved the tees up would be pretty extreme.

Jerry, there is some truth about wanting it to be a par 5.  However, as I understand it, the original plans had the tee box on the 17th hole side of the little stream.  That would have made the hole very different from the one we have now.  It could have been a much more exciting tee shot than the one we have now. The DNR did not let that happen, hence the long walk to the tee and a tee shot that inspires little fear or thought.

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