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TEPaul

Re: The Pro Traj Titleist
« Reply #75 on: November 07, 2010, 02:17:20 PM »
"TEPaul,
Had the USGA limited their conclusions to the very narrow results of their tests, I'd have no problem with either.  But that isn't what happened.  Rather, the USGA asked if "modern golf balls used on the PGA Tour give an unfair distance advantage to players with very high swing speeds." Their conclusion was a resounding "No:"



David Moriarty:

That is exactly what Steve Quintavalla's 2006 report did----eg limit its CONCLUSIONS to golf balls actually tested and statistically reported. They were all "new age" balls and he said so in his report by stating that by the 2000---2005 timeframes wound ball technology essentially no longer existed or was not used any longer by those in that particular test set---PGA Tour. And the test results he reported on showed no distance "bonus" along a linear axis of increasing swing speeds increments (90mph to 130mph) to players with higher or highest swings speeds. The tests and his report mentioned actually something of the opposite----eg higher and highest swing speeds in the test recorded diminishing distance production along that linear axis as swing speeds increased compared to the lower swing speed set.



"Unfortunately, the tests they performed by no means supported the broad conclusions they reached."


Again, the TESTS they performed in that Quintavalla 2006 report did support the CONCLUSIONS Quintavalla's report reached.

 

"The distance "bonus" can't be seen by looking at the performance of a the modern ball at different swing speeds, but rather by looking at the performance of the old state of the art balls versus the new state of the art balls at different swing speeds."






If tests were conducted and a report on them written analyzing "new age" ball technology and the old wound ball technology that most every good and high swing speed player used to use and that was used to analyze and compare the distance differential between low and high swing speed players it would apparently invariably show that the higher and highest swing speed set suffered a distinct loss in distance with the old wound ball technology when a linear axis is considered across that swing speed spectrum, and even probably including compared to the balls the lower swing speed set used to use which was almost unversally not the wound ball technology, and very possibly was not even the best ball technology for the lower swing speed set for distance production.

Perhaps you think that was "fair" although I'm certainly not sure why, and particularly when you consider Quintavalla's tests and report that also shows there is no distance "bonus" along that linear axis of swing speed increments when most all golfers are now, and for the first time in a number of decades, using balls of the same ball technology rather than two distinctly different types of ball technology as had been true from approximately the late 1960s until perhaps around 2000.

However, I am certainly willing to acknowledge and admit that you may not be aware of this historic reality with ball technology and performance characteristics or for some reason you do appreciate its significance in this over-all distance differential issue between low and high swing speed players. This might be the primary reason for your confusion and for what you have been saying for some years now on this issue.

My suggestion would be to consider very carefully first what golfers and golf I&B scientists who lived and played through this entire timeframe (arguably from the late 1960s until to date) and observed it and analyzed it all directly have to say about it.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2010, 02:51:31 PM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

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Re: The Pro Traj Titleist
« Reply #76 on: November 07, 2010, 02:53:49 PM »
TEPaul,

One cannot adequately evaluate the consequences of a change in technology without considering the pre-change, baseline state-of-the-art technology.   Yet that is what the USGA claims to have done.    Defend them all you like, but their conclusions were mistaken.   There was a distance bonus, but one must compare the new technology to the old tectnology to measure it.   Their test was flawed because it was not designed to reach the conclusion they ultimately reached.  
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: The Pro Traj Titleist
« Reply #77 on: November 07, 2010, 03:06:33 PM »
"TEPaul,
One cannot adequately evaluate the consequences of a change in technology without considering the pre-change, baseline state of the art technology.   Yet that is what the USGA claims to have done."



David Moriarty:

That is where I completely disagree with you and everything it seems you've been saying for some years now or else what you are now saying about Steve Quintavalla's 2006 test report. It does not claim or pretend to analyze and draw conclusions about a distance bonus or distance differential between low and high swing spped players using the former wound ball technology compared to the new age ball technology as those two technologies were not the direct subject of his ball performance test results or his report.

However, there are most certainly a number of people out there and including within the USGA's I&B Test Center that know exactly what the reality was between the swing speed spectrum involving those two ball technologies, and a few of them knew exactly what was happened as it occured.

Frank Thomas is most definitely one of them; that's for damn sure. Perhaps it's fashionable these days for some such as yourself to say otherwise and deny that and just claim everyone within the USGA had no idea what was going on but of course the truth is you are completely and utterly wrong.

However, I don't have much doubt that will stop you saying what you have been or will actually encourage you to find out what really happened, when, how and why!  ;)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pro Traj Titleist
« Reply #78 on: November 07, 2010, 03:32:38 PM »
No need to argue about it Tom.   Anyone who cares to can take a look at the USGA's press release to see the breadth of their claims and conclusions.

It was entitled "Do Long Hitters Get An Unfair Benefit?"  

Call me crazy, but to me this is pretty clear indication that they set out to determine whether the new golf ball technology disproportionately benefited the longer hitters.  

It seems evident that the new technology provided a huge distance "benefit" to the fast swinging golfers relative to the slow swinging golfers.     Yet the USGA reached the opposite conclusion, did they not?  "Actually, there is no extra distance "bonus" for high swing speeds."

Here again is the link . . . http://www.usga.org/news/2006/April/Speed-Vs--Distance--Do-Long-Hitters-Get-An-Unfair-Benefit-/

As anyone can see, their conclusions were quite broad, yet their test was quite narrow.   Hopefully they now have a better grasp of the nature of the problem as they did then.  
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Paul_Turner

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Re: The Pro Traj Titleist
« Reply #79 on: November 07, 2010, 03:58:19 PM »
The driving distance stats comparison for 2000-2005 in that the USGA report (appendix) convinced me that the transition from wound (2000) to solid (2005) ball didn't unfairly help the longest hitters when compared to the shortest---on tour at least.



If the LPGA stats were available we could do the same analysis and stretch the range of strengths i.e. from the weakest  LPGA player to the strongest PGA.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2010, 07:46:42 PM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

TEPaul

Re: The Pro Traj Titleist
« Reply #80 on: November 07, 2010, 10:27:27 PM »
David Moriarty:


OK, fine, no problem.

You're crazy!

TEPaul

Re: The Pro Traj Titleist
« Reply #81 on: November 08, 2010, 08:58:57 AM »
"The driving distance stats comparison for 2000-2005 in that the USGA report (appendix) convinced me that the transition from wound (2000) to solid (2005) ball didn't unfairly help the longest hitters when compared to the shortest---on tour at least."


Paul:

As I'm sure you probably know I tend to agree with what you said there. However, if one carefully considers Quintavalla's 2006 report they will see he apparently used golf balls in his tests and consequent report that were used on Tour as of Feb. 2006. That was apparently what he described as the new-age multilayer "solid" balls and they apparently were from the 2005 time slice. He did mention that the 2000 stats included the common use of the old wound technology balls. And of course the test stats were from 100 Tour pros in Tour competitions in those two time slices.

He also did not include the swing speed spectrum in those Tour 2000 and 2005 stats even though he did include that swing speed spectrum (90mph to 125mph) in the tests that were done apparently using those 2005 Tour player balls with the USGA's test equipment and some of its (ODS) protocol.  

What I do not know, even though I may be able to ask and find out, is if the same kind of swing speed spectrum tests and analyses were done and used by the USGA in their ODS tests and protocols back in the old days using both the soft ball technology balls and the hard ball technology balls that we all know were commonly used back then even if the two player levels essentially exclusively used one and not the other back then.

I think I once asked Frank Thomas some years ago if the USGA had statistics on where those old soft balls stacked up against the ODS limit protocol (109mph back then and 120mph later) and also perhaps how they compared in that vein to the much lower spin rate two piece hard balls that apparently were at or near the ODS limitation conformance line on distance. I can't remember now what he said; whether they did not test and generate those comparative stats back then or perhaps that they were classified due to manufacturer legal considerations and such like.

« Last Edit: November 08, 2010, 09:36:50 AM by TEPaul »

Steve Lang

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Re: The Pro Traj Titleist
« Reply #82 on: November 08, 2010, 08:27:10 PM »
The driving distance stats comparison for 2000-2005 in that the USGA report (appendix) convinced me that the transition from wound (2000) to solid (2005) ball didn't unfairly help the longest hitters when compared to the shortest---on tour at least.



If the LPGA stats were available we could do the same analysis and stretch the range of strengths i.e. from the weakest  LPGA player to the strongest PGA.

Paul was that linear correlation (or more appropriately lack thereof) presented in the report or did you create it? 
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

TEPaul

Re: The Pro Traj Titleist
« Reply #83 on: November 09, 2010, 07:07:12 AM »
Steve:

That graph is part of USGA PHD engineer Steve Quintavalla's 2006 report that is linked in Post #56 and Post #78. It's also on the USGA's website under Equipment/Research Studies. The graph can be found via the red link in the report which contains the entire technical part of Quintavalla's over-all 2006 report on whether high swing speed players get an unfair distance benefit.

This entire issue going back about 30 years now certainly is fairly complex and confusing as it includes a number of interesting realities, changes and evolutions in both ball technology and manufacturing, and in play----ie who used what technologies at various points in time and what that meant in the context of distance differentials between low swing speed and high swing speed players etc, etc.

I am convinced, however, that if we look at the entire issue over that time and in the context of all the contributing factors we will get to the bottom of it and to a true understanding of it all, what happened, when, how and why.

By the way, I just had an excellent 1/2 hour conversation with Steve Quintavalla in the middle of this post. Great guy to speak with and very forthcoming, in my opinion. He has been with the USGA's Test Center for thirteen years.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2010, 09:51:41 AM by TEPaul »

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pro Traj Titleist
« Reply #84 on: November 17, 2010, 05:47:32 AM »
In an interview printed in Australian Golf Digest this month (presumably also in Golf Digest) Phil Mickelson says that the new ball is bigger.
The magazine measured the Professional and the Pro V1 and found that the Pro V was 1.67 and the Professional was 1.63.
I assume those numbers are wrong because 1.68 is the minimum but obviously Phil has noticed as well.

Geoff Ogilvy,John Huggan and I played Barnbougle  and Lost Farm on Monday and Tuesday with Pro-Traj Titleists as well as the Tour Balata and the Professional. They look and feel smaller than the Pro V.

If Mickelson is right when do we think the manufacturers were thinking of telling us the ball size has changed?

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pro Traj Titleist
« Reply #85 on: November 17, 2010, 06:54:10 AM »
Mike

Unless the wound balls have shrunk I'm sceptical that these were 1.63 as originally manufactured.  It's a very easy test for the USGA and manufacturers to check that a ball met the lower limit of 1.68.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Jason Topp

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Re: The Pro Traj Titleist
« Reply #86 on: November 17, 2010, 03:01:17 PM »
In an interview printed in Australian Golf Digest this month (presumably also in Golf Digest) Phil Mickelson says that the new ball is bigger.
The magazine measured the Professional and the Pro V1 and found that the Pro V was 1.67 and the Professional was 1.63.
I assume those numbers are wrong because 1.68 is the minimum but obviously Phil has noticed as well.

Geoff Ogilvy,John Huggan and I played Barnbougle  and Lost Farm on Monday and Tuesday with Pro-Traj Titleists as well as the Tour Balata and the Professional. They look and feel smaller than the Pro V.

If Mickelson is right when do we think the manufacturers were thinking of telling us the ball size has changed?

Mike:

That article came out in the online version of the US Golf Digest a few months ago.  The magazine subsequently retracted that portion of the article indicating there was a problem with the measurement methodology.  It is interesting that the article would come out in its original form in Australia months later.

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pro Traj Titleist
« Reply #87 on: November 17, 2010, 04:40:23 PM »
Jason,

I assumed there was some sort of problem because their measurements would have meant both balls were illegal.
Still. are the balls different sizes? From the naked eye it appears they are.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pro Traj Titleist
« Reply #88 on: November 17, 2010, 10:29:17 PM »
Mike,
Mic them, I think you'll find the ProV1 is 'standard' and if the Pro Traj ball is smaller it's shrinkage.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pro Traj Titleist
« Reply #89 on: November 18, 2010, 07:15:33 AM »
It could be 'shrinkage' but it seems they have all shrunk by the same amount - Pro-Traj and the Tour Balata which was ten years later I think.
Obviously the only way to answer the question to to accurately measure the balls.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pro Traj Titleist
« Reply #90 on: November 18, 2010, 04:31:21 PM »
Mike,

If there is a uniform shrinking-with-age issue with the Pro Trajectory, I doubt that measuring will resolve it unless you can get Titleist to mix you up some new ones.

I looked at some old Patent applications where the Pro Trajectory was used for comparison, and they list the Pro Trajectory as 1.680 inches +/- .003 inches.   For example, here is a pretty standard statement about the Pro Trajectory from a 1990 Acushnet patent application regarding dimple pattern:
  
A group of golf balls was obtained. The golf balls are made by the assignee of the instant invention and are sold under the trademark Titleist Pro Trajectory. . .. The molded golf balls are treated and painted in standard manner. The diameter of the finished golf balls is 1.680 inches. It is pointed out that all diameters given are average values. Actual values may vary as much as 0.003 inches.

I also looked at Patent applications using the ProV1 for comparison, and it looks as if it is usually listed at 1.683-1.686 inches in diameter.  For example, in their 2009 patent application for the reduced distance ball two measured Pro V1s are listed at 1.683 and 1.686. 

So if these specs are accurate then the ProV1 might be very slightly bigger than the Pro Trajectory was at manufacture, but surely that small difference would not be visible to the human eye, would it?
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 04:35:17 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pro Traj Titleist
« Reply #91 on: November 18, 2010, 04:37:14 PM »
Mike,
They were all made to the similar specs, they were all stored together in the same packaging, and they were all stored in the same climate. As I mentioned earlier, I think it would be more unusual if they all shrunk at different rates.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Bryan Izatt

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Re: The Pro Traj Titleist
« Reply #92 on: November 18, 2010, 10:56:12 PM »

.........................

So if these specs are accurate then the ProV1 might be very slightly bigger than the Pro Trajectory was at manufacture, but surely that small difference would not be visible to the human eye, would it?

David,

Could you see the difference between a regular ball and a TopFlite Magna (which I occasionally still find)?  The Magna is 5/100" bigger than a regular ball.  You're talking about 3/1000" between the Pro Trajectory and the Pro V1.  I'm sure I couldn't tell at the thousandth of an inch level.  I could tell a Magna because it wouldn't fit in the ball holder on my old pull cart.

 

TEPaul

Re: The Pro Traj Titleist
« Reply #93 on: November 19, 2010, 05:21:09 PM »
If the Pro Traj was smaller than 1.68" when it was manufactured and distributed it would've failed the USGA conformance test.

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Pro Traj Titleist
« Reply #94 on: November 23, 2010, 12:03:58 PM »


I just weighed a trio of Titleist Professionals that I've kept over the years - a liquid centred wound ball - and was surprised to see that they weighed about 3 to 4 grams (about 7%) less than a current ball.  I doubt they were under weight when new, so I'm guessing that either some of the liquid core has leached out over the years or perhaps the rubber windings have dried out and leached out through the cover.  I can't measure the diameter accurately, but I'd bet they've shrunk with the drying out process.  So, the end result is a smaller diameter, lighter ball.  Maybe the two cancel each other out and the ball performs about the same as it used to.


TEPaul

Re: The Pro Traj Titleist
« Reply #95 on: November 23, 2010, 01:31:09 PM »
Bryan and Neil:

I'm fairly certain given their knowledge of I&B technology either the USGA Test Center or any golf ball manufacturer would be able to answer the question of whether a ball such as the Pro Traj is likely to shrink in size and weight over a number of years.

Since my father once worked for Spalding I have always been aware that wound technology balls did not have much of a shelf-life. The solid two piece balls had a better shelf-life and apparently these new age balls have a really good shelf-life.

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